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RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 4/21/2019 10:11:31 AM

Dinglir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
One thing I noted about ROF -10.. the siege devices all have a ROF -10 .. I find that the device fires just after the air phase. On the attack I noted the effects on fort level immediately . So I have seen 2 600mm devices take fort level from 3 to 0 in one fell swoop. (Tambov in 8MP). So the fort reduction at the beginning makes every attack far more effective. Combine that with 305mm rockets .. 210mm .. well Sevastopol can be taken down in a turn.

Is it your experience that rockets are ineffective against fortifications?

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Post #: 61

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 4/21/2019 2:54:17 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
One thing I noted about ROF -10.. the siege devices all have a ROF -10 .. I find that the device fires just after the air phase. On the attack I noted the effects on fort level immediately . So I have seen 2 600mm devices take fort level from 3 to 0 in one fell swoop. (Tambov in 8MP). So the fort reduction at the beginning makes every attack far more effective. Combine that with 305mm rockets .. 210mm .. well Sevastopol can be taken down in a turn.

Is it your experience that rockets are ineffective against fortifications?

So here is my understanding for debate/correction:

1: It appears to me that the Super Hvy gun class gets a special round of combat that reduces fort levels. That alone tells me to fill my precious HQ slots with the Super Hvy guns. Especially vs Soviet Guards in level 3 forts. I bring "Karl" in when there is urban terrain and high fort levels.

2. Compare rockets to howitzers:

300mm Rocket Blast=25 anti-soft = 628 35 "tubes" ROF 6
305mm Howitzer Blast=30 anti- soft 1289 10 guns ROF -5

So in the world of randomness I see results with the 305mm Howitzers. Ignoring the reduction of the fort levels, those extra anti-soft points kills the soft targets it hits -- thus seeing it at high message level .. I see results

I do not see the same level of results from the rockets though there are extra opportunities. My worldview it is like taking an RPG vs an elephant gun vs guys with an armored vest. The RPG gets results. The elephant gun gets multiple shots and maybe one penetrates.

But .. I tend to attach a super hvy unit and get fort reduction and then add in the hvy rockets vs a lower fort level. The anti-soft of 628 vs a lower fort level is effective.

I invite thoughts.

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Post #: 62

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 4/21/2019 5:09:45 PM

SparkleyTits

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The lower the fort and the lighter the terrain the better rockets perform.
They progressively lose the advantages until becoming an ill used resources as you get further away from the picture perfect scenario of level 0 forts in clear terrain!

Same system as ground bombing with planes from what I can tell

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Post #: 63

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 4/21/2019 8:34:44 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

The lower the fort and the lighter the terrain the better rockets perform.
They progressively lose the advantages until becoming an ill used resources as you get further away from the picture perfect scenario of level 0 forts in clear terrain!

Same system as ground bombing with planes from what I can tell

Ground Support has the advantage of occurring first and thus any disruption last the whole battle. But alas fort level 3 can make the loss of bombers not worth the price of admission.

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Post #: 64

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 4/30/2019 6:30:43 PM

Dinglir

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Turn six

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Post #: 65

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 4/30/2019 6:53:17 PM

Telemecus

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A fun Freudian slip in the turn 6 AAR pdf!

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Post #: 66

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/1/2019 9:26:39 AM

Dinglir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

A fun Freudian slip in the turn 6 AAR pdf!

I would have liked to repsond to the above comment, but I have nothing........

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Post #: 67

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/2/2019 6:24:13 AM

MattFL

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Man, a powerful panzer division parked in a swamp east of the Polis just south of an SS MOT Division broken down into regiments seemingly on the defensive on Turn 6...�� Seems HJ has squandered his breakthrough a few turns ago. Guderian just turned over in his grave I think.

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Post #: 68

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/6/2019 3:41:25 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

Ie: If you buy Soviet Gun brigades for the first winter, should you choose the one with (72) 75mm guns or the one with (36) 150mm tubes? One is probably better for fighting in the open, while the other is better for punching through heavily defended positions.

I might propose it is a choice of more squads disrupted (affecting enemy CV) vs more killed men (affecting firepower over the long run) but less squads affected (less disrupted squads and thus higher adjusted CV). The blast from the 150mm shell will cause higher causalities but the lower amount of engagements will not touch as many squads/devices.

Thus the Germans might lose more troops but still win the CV contest ..

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Post #: 69

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/8/2019 2:01:17 PM

Dinglir

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Turn Seven.

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Post #: 70

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/8/2019 2:45:43 PM

Telemecus

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This is a very common bug - it is not down to anything the German player will have done.

I have numerous cases of the Rumanian air force being commanded by a Hungarian HQ and vice versa. For some reason the program loves to put the Finnish air force doing missions near Leningrad under a Rumanian HQ!

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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/8/2019 2:47:09 PM >

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Post #: 71

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/9/2019 1:16:21 PM

Huw Jones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

Man, a powerful panzer division parked in a swamp east of the Polis just south of an SS MOT Division broken down into regiments seemingly on the defensive on Turn 6...�� Seems HJ has squandered his breakthrough a few turns ago. Guderian just turned over in his grave I think.

It wasn�t a planned breakthrough is the main problem in the North, I was going to move those units to the Center, but thought it was worthwhile to clear the river lines South of lake Ilmen instead with them.

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Post #: 72

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/9/2019 2:17:46 PM

Huw Jones

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T7 in the SOUTH:

"In the air, there are Luftwaffe assetes in the area, but for some reason they seem to have been attached to
the Slovakian Air Command, which is certainly not a move I would have expected."

There are no German air units attached to Slovakian Air Command.

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Post #: 73

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/9/2019 2:20:01 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Huw Jones

T7 in the SOUTH:

"In the air, there are Luftwaffe assetes in the area, but for some reason they seem to have been attached to
the Slovakian Air Command, which is certainly not a move I would have expected."

There are no German air units attached to Slovakian Air Command.

And it would be impossible to do even if you wanted to - this is just a common bug. The battle reports regularly give bizarre air HQs for battles. The Finnish air fighting near Leningrad often get given a Rumanian air HQ!

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Post #: 74

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/9/2019 4:00:28 PM

MattFL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Huw Jones

quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

Man, a powerful panzer division parked in a swamp east of the Polis just south of an SS MOT Division broken down into regiments seemingly on the defensive on Turn 6...�� Seems HJ has squandered his breakthrough a few turns ago. Guderian just turned over in his grave I think.

It wasn�t a planned breakthrough is the main problem in the North, I was going to move those units to the Center, but thought it was worthwhile to clear the river lines South of lake Ilmen instead with them.

Perhaps not, but opportunism is the hallmark of good GHC play in the first 10 turns.... You took the opportunity to force the breakthrough and I think should have followed up much more aggressively with a direct drive on Lenningrad rather than ever mess about south of the Ilmen. Once you sent the units there the turn you broke through rather than directing everything more north, you've been mired there for what seems like several turns while the Russians get stronger in front of Lenningrad. Anyway, just the view of a Monday morning quarterback....

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Post #: 75

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/9/2019 7:35:56 PM

Huw Jones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Huw Jones

quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

Man, a powerful panzer division parked in a swamp east of the Polis just south of an SS MOT Division broken down into regiments seemingly on the defensive on Turn 6...�� Seems HJ has squandered his breakthrough a few turns ago. Guderian just turned over in his grave I think.

It wasn�t a planned breakthrough is the main problem in the North, I was going to move those units to the Center, but thought it was worthwhile to clear the river lines South of lake Ilmen instead with them.

Perhaps not, but opportunism is the hallmark of good GHC play in the first 10 turns.... You took the opportunity to force the breakthrough and I think should have followed up much more aggressively with a direct drive on Lenningrad rather than ever mess about south of the Ilmen. Once you sent the units there the turn you broke through rather than directing everything more north, you've been mired there for what seems like several turns while the Russians get stronger in front of Lenningrad. Anyway, just the view of a Monday morning quarterback....

I don't recall the intel I could see anymore, but if the direct route was open, or looked open, I would have gone that way.

As to the inf they mostly went the direct route, as fast as they could.

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Post #: 76

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/13/2019 5:01:56 PM

Dinglir

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Turn eight

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Post #: 77

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/26/2019 2:56:24 AM

56ajax

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Bit slow on the reading here but may I quote from T1

quote:

I often see the Soviet Air Force used to bomb the German Panzers in order to cause fatigue and a drop in MP. I believe this is a poor use of the bombers, as Panzer MP are determined by the fuel reaching the units and not the fatigue levels of the units.

According to the manual fatigue does reduce movement points. Section 14.1.2 states

quote:

2. Calculate average fatigue of the unit based on the number and fatigue of each type of ground element. Reduce the number of MP's by the average fatigue divided by ten, rounded down.

So fatigue can be quite significant, but how you measure the increase in fatigue from bombing, if any, is beyond me.

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Molotov : This we did not deserve.

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Post #: 78

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/26/2019 6:57:36 AM

Dinglir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
So fatigue can be quite significant, but how you measure the increase in fatigue from bombing, if any, is beyond me.

when calculating the MP of a Panzer unit at the start of the turn, the system assumes 50MP and then subtracts points for fatigue (10% fatigue equals one MP reduction). There are also two leader checks to see if the MP are reduced by 20% extra.

This leads to an temporary MP value which is then compared to the available fuel. If there is not enough fuel to go around, the MP are then reduced to match the level of fuel available.

My point is that such a reduction will happen very often once the Germans move into Russia, and consequently the fatigue level ends up having no impact on MP.

Further, the impact of a fatigue reduction is much more severe on an infantry unit (16 MP max) than it is on a Panzer unit (50MP max). If the fatigue level does reduce the Panzers MP, this will mean there is fuel left in the Panzer at the end of the turn, and it will "gain" extra MP come next turn.

I "calculate" the fatigue levels by looking at the amount of disruption done. At the end of combat, disruption is translated into fatigue. I am however unsure if the number of disrupted units are simply "added" to the fatigue levels or iof existing fatigue means that a percentage of extra fatigue is added.

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Post #: 79

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/26/2019 10:21:15 AM

56ajax

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To be honest I find the MP example in the manual = brainium strainium but if i pump some figures through it

If the temp MP is 50 ( no change) and fuel is at 50% then you get 25 MPs

If the temp MP is 45 (only 90%) and fuel is at 50% then you get 24 MPs...

and I could be completely wrong...

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre a�rienne

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Post #: 80

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/26/2019 11:09:51 AM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
If the temp MP is 50 ( no change) and fuel is at 50% then you get 25 MPs
If the temp MP is 45 (only 90%) and fuel is at 50% then you get 24 MPs...

At least reading Dinglir I think what they are saying is

If the temp MP is 50 ( no change) and fuel is at 50% then you get 25 MPs
If the temp MP is 45 (only 90%) and fuel is at 50% then you get 25 MPs also
as 25 is the minimum of temp MP (45) and low fuel MP (25)

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/26/2019 11:10:06 AM >

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Post #: 81

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/26/2019 11:27:44 PM

56ajax

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Whilst I may have a slightly different interpretation of the rule I would agree that substantially low fuel overrides MP loss from fatigue.

Thus only bomb Panzers when their tanks are full

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Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre a�rienne

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Post #: 82

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 5/27/2019 12:18:49 AM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Whilst I may have a slightly different interpretation of the rule I would agree that substantially low fuel overrides MP loss from fatigue.

Thus only bomb Panzers when their tanks are full

I sense frustration but there are other reasons to ground bomb like for example increase detection, plus ground bombing lowers CV . That might be a failed hasty attack ..

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Post #: 83

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/1/2019 8:28:10 PM

Dinglir

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Turn nine.

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Post #: 84

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/1/2019 8:55:38 PM

Telemecus

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This result, with no fighters defending a day bombing mission, certainly makes me think the Axis percentage required to fly is 25% or more - and many of the Axis fighter groups are below it. I know this approach is more my thing. But I would have thought, given your action in your game against Hermann realising they had no fighter defence then, that you might have thought to do the same this time?

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Post #: 85

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/2/2019 5:05:16 AM

Dinglir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

This result, with no fighters defending a day bombing mission, certainly makes me think the Axis percentage required to fly is 25% or more - and many of the Axis fighter groups are below it. I know this approach is more my thing. But I would have thought, given your action in your game against Hermann realising they had no fighter defence then, that you might have thought to do the same this time?

Obviously, Huw is the only person who can give a final quote on his fighter setings.

My impression at this time was that the reluctance to fly was mainly due to high fatigue. I often saw a few fighters flying in the first couple of battles of my turn, before they decided to stay on the airfield for the eventual bombing attacks.

Those few fighter missions were often done by Gruppen with no more than five or ten ready fighters on them (if I recall correctly).

In any case, letting the Luftwaffe "slip" to allow for such bombings as this (whatever the cause) is a mistake in my opinion.

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To be is to do -- Socrates
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Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

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Post #: 86

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/2/2019 11:22:57 AM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
My impression at this time was that the reluctance to fly was mainly due to high fatigue.

I know this has often been quoted and is a common belief among many including myself previously. But I have become more and more convinced that there is no such thing as too fatigued to fly. The performance in combat may be severely impeded, and it might not be the first choice of the AI to send into combat, but if that is the only fighter group that can intercept then fatigue, no matter how high, will never stop it.

Instead what we usually think is high fatigue stopping fighters from flying is usually in fact air doctrine, lack of airbase supplies or occasionally weather or bad ratings checks. I think I have a lot of evidence for this, but it is difficult to control the conditions of a test during the other side's action phase. And probably only someone like Morvael could give a definitive answer. As I know you do pay attention to air combat results I would be interested if you see more evidence to support or deny this over time.

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RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/2/2019 1:49:06 PM

Dinglir

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What I have seen (from memory, I will take a closer look) is this:

1) When I do my intial Recon missions, I sometimes get a few interceptors for the first few recon missions in each area. After this, the intercept missions tend to stop. This is even if there are no more than 5-10 flightworthy aircraft to each Gruppe, indicating that requirements to fly are very low.
2) When I bomb frontline units as my second action of the turn, I do not see interceptors flying - I guess this is because og high fatigue levels.
3) When I then bomb the airfields, I sometimes get interceptors flying. My suspicion is that fatigue levels are ignored when defending airfields against enemy bombers but not against other mission types.

I am not sure, as I simply do not know the flight settings and/or the supply levels of my opponent.

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To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

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Post #: 88

RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/2/2019 7:52:23 PM

Huw Jones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

What I have seen (from memory, I will take a closer look) is this:

1) When I do my intial Recon missions, I sometimes get a few interceptors for the first few recon missions in each area. After this, the intercept missions tend to stop. This is even if there are no more than 5-10 flightworthy aircraft to each Gruppe, indicating that requirements to fly are very low.
2) When I bomb frontline units as my second action of the turn, I do not see interceptors flying - I guess this is because og high fatigue levels.
3) When I then bomb the airfields, I sometimes get interceptors flying. My suspicion is that fatigue levels are ignored when defending airfields against enemy bombers but not against other mission types.

I am not sure, as I simply do not know the flight settings and/or the supply levels of my opponent.