RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece

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RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece - 3/25/2019 3:31:08 PM

Lobster

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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Totally wrong question.

Why?

Because you're presuming Stalin had a wargame with assigned accurate values to all his units and those of the Germans. Ask yourself this: Why did the Austrians, Russians, and Prussians take on Napoleon in 1805 and 1806 when they were hopelessly outmatched? Hadn't they played the most popular wargames on the subject?

They didn't have a wargame for that so of course they lost.

The Prussians had one for invading France in 1870 and of course they won.

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(in reply to Capitaine)

Post #: 31

RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece - 3/25/2019 3:39:19 PM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
would have driven straight to Moscow from Smolensk. Probably would have arrived there by mid August.

... and Vladivostok in October, no doubt.

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Post #: 32

RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece - 3/25/2019 3:44:19 PM

Lobster

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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

Apologies, which the German generals were very good at blaming someone else rather than admitting their own mistakes.
True, true also that the Germans underestimate their opponents, their repeated victories comfort them in the idea that they can try everything and succeed.
How could they imagine that soldiers from the cold with the worst winter of the century would inflict their first setbacks.
Siberians, Siberians ...

The 'Siberians' is one of those myths used to validate an ass whooping. Only 6 Soviet rifle divisions arrived in October and only the 32nd, 78th, 93rd and 238th could be somehow associated with defending Moscow. And the 238th only started to form in March. The 32nd and 93rd were the only ones that had a significant portion of troops from Siberia. Many of the divisions transferred to the west side of the Urals before Typhoon were committed well before Typhoon commenced and they had already been badly mauled or outright destroyed. This is one of those times where the Germans attempted to justify their failure by making up stories.

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Post #: 33

RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece - 3/25/2019 4:21:55 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
The 'Siberians' is one of those myths [...] This is one of those times where the Germans attempted to justify their failure by making up stories.

Actually, these are the numbers that matter: 150 rifle divisions + dozens of rifle and tank brigades were created from june to december alone. STAVKA never stopped churning out cannon fodder. Germans had a point on this one. If only they had dropped dead and surrendered

Except the USSR (unlike France) could afford it: space + time + manpower.

The poor Germans could NOT afford the 700k casualties before the winter though... and that's the whole story.

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Post #: 34

RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece - 3/25/2019 4:54:04 PM

rico21

Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

Apologies, which the German generals were very good at blaming someone else rather than admitting their own mistakes.
True, true also that the Germans underestimate their opponents, their repeated victories comfort them in the idea that they can try everything and succeed.
How could they imagine that soldiers from the cold with the worst winter of the century would inflict their first setbacks.
Siberians, Siberians ...

The 'Siberians' is one of those myths used to validate an ass whooping. Only 6 Soviet rifle divisions arrived in October and only the 32nd, 78th, 93rd and 238th could be somehow associated with defending Moscow. And the 238th only started to form in March. The 32nd and 93rd were the only ones that had a significant portion of troops from Siberia. Many of the divisions transferred to the west side of the Urals before Typhoon were committed well before Typhoon commenced and they had already been badly mauled or outright destroyed. This is one of those times where the Germans attempted to justify their failure by making up stories.

For me, the Russians are now using Siberian veterans like the SS Korps in 1943 as a spearhead.
It is interesting to see that we do not have the same look at the course of the war at all.
By the way, who won?

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 35

RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece - 3/25/2019 5:15:41 PM

Lobster

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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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You have a look. I have official records.

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Post #: 36

RE: Mussolini's adventures in Greece - 3/26/2019 9:37:22 AM

ernieschwitz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Is Hearts of Iron the only game you can play these political what if scenarios with? Most of the Matrix games are battle and operation oriented.

Just run a TOAW FitE2 scenario from May and throw in some weeks of mud at the start. Germany probably could have started mid June without the mud but I don't see it going away much sooner. The entire year of 1941 was one of weirdness. It was like the gods of war conspired against Hitler and his whole conquer the world thing.

I think I made many excellent what-if mods for various platforms. If you want to try one that is global conflict, I'd recommend Global Domination 1938, version 3. It is a mod for Advanced Tactics Gold.

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 37