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RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and Mayhemizer)

 
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RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 2:58:11 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		No strategic bombing.

One Japanese 2 strength LND2 ground strikes the Communist in hex 77,136 (Mao).

Germany ground strikes the Paris defenders with one LND3 (3 strength).

France has one FTR2, and one FTR3 available for interception. Germany has one FTR2, and one FTR3 available for counter-interception.

Will France send up any interceptor?



Picture from Jul/Aug '40 Impulse #3 (Axis) - Ground Strike

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Orm -- 8/27/2019 2:59:01 PM >

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 601
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 3:42:57 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		No thank you.

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 602
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 4:28:51 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		The German bomber misses the target completely.

Although it is rumoured that they actually managed to hit one haystack. And that is impressive if you consider the fact that haystacks must be rare in a city as Paris...




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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 603
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 4:31:08 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

Shocking news from China. One Japanese bomber actually managed to hit the target.



Picture from Jul/Aug '40 Impulse #3 (Axis) - Ground Strike

Attachment (1)

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 604
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 5:04:21 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		No rail movement.

Land Movement:

Germany, part one:
MIL (62,33) -> 62,32
INF Div (62,34) -> 62,32

Italy:
Partisan (92,105) -> 91,105
MTN (62,33) -> 62,32

Japan:
The two units in Korea move to Seoul.
Army group Terauchi moves westwards at full speed.
Yamamoto advance towards Changsha.
INF (76,133) -> 76,132
Minor adjustments to the lines.

Over to Germany for part two of the land moves, and the remaining portion of our impulse.



Picture from Jul/Aug '40 Impulse #3 (Axis) - Land Movement

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Orm -- 8/27/2019 5:05:07 PM >

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 605
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 7:59:02 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Land movement

Germany;
In the North German forces relocate and advance slow between France lines and in the South they pass the France Alps unhindered(!)




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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/27/2019 8:08:54 PM >

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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 606
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 8:01:14 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Land Combat declaration

Germany declares two attacks:
+13,4 (14,4B)(47:7) Hex (54,31) FR Mec Stack
+14 (19,5B)(50:10) Hex (55,30) FR HQ Stack

Note
German AA included against FR Mec Stack

No German HQ Support

No German Ground support

Image from Jul/Aug 1940 Axis #3 Allied defensive ground support



Does France commit defensive ground support?

IF FR Art Def Ground support(Or Ftr3 Flys Def Ground support as Bomber) ON FR HQ Stack
Odds 11,7(+17,2B)(50:13)

IF FR Ftr3 also Flys Def Ground support as Bomber and it possibly pass GE Ftr2(6) and/or Ftr3(4) ON FR HQ Stack
Odds 10,3(+15,8B)(56:16)

IF FR Ftr3 Flys Def Ground support as Bomber and it possibly pass GE Ftr2(6) and/or Ftr3(4) but ON FR Mec stack
Odds 9,4(+10,4B)(47:10)



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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/27/2019 8:28:54 PM >

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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 8:08:13 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Has Germany any AA included in any of the attacks?

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 608
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 8:10:20 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Yes, against the FR Mec stack so it could possibly shoot there during defensive ground support

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/27/2019 8:11:52 PM >

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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 609
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 8:14:43 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		France sends nothing. Attack picture is not showing on my screen, but with those odds French can't do anything.

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 610
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/27/2019 8:25:43 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		The night falls while the cannons are pounding and the caterpillars rattle from the German armors but the battle is decided tomorrow morning,when dawn comes (Axis HQ goes to sleep)

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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 611
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 4:31:14 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Land Combat Selection & Resolution





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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 612
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 4:37:01 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		German attack on FR HQ Stack is good, note that FR HQI Georges was also destroyed due to no valid retreat hex.




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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 613
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 4:41:44 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		The first result changes the odds the FR Mec Stack, due to Out of Supply. The units are Doomed.






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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 614
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 4:43:28 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		The result:




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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 615
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 4:55:27 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Air Rebase:

Germany:
FTR2 Antwerp -> 54,29
LND2 51,32 -> 56,32
LND2 52,33 -> 54,31

Japan:
FTR2 (83,143) -> 84,140

Italy:
LND3 (74,39) -> Turin
NAV2 (Bardia) -> 73,37 (Sicily)

No reorganization


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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 616
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 5:00:19 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Western front 1940 J/A Allied #4




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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 617
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 6:51:19 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		How is HQ destroyed? Can’t it retreat 2 hexes?

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 618
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 8:12:58 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Right. Here is an explanation why the HQI was destroyed. Edit: It is the retreat priorities that dooms the French retreat attempt.

1) The units retreat according to the priorities listed below. Priority #1, and #2, is out because of enemy ZOC. However, priority #3 is viable since there is a hex in ZOC it can retreat into that doesn't cause overstacking and that is to the NE where the MECH is.
2) Then the rule that say that if the unit ends up in a hex that is still to be attacked, then it must continue retreating.
3) However, the only available retreat hex now is the combat hex. And retreating back into the combat hex is forbidden. Hence the unit is destroyed.

Note that this would be the fate if the unit was division sized.

If all adjacent French hexes would have been priority #4 hexes, then the MWIF rules would forced the German to retreat the units so that they could 'survive'.



Cut from RAC: 11.16.5 Resolving attacks
....
Retreats
If the result includes an ‘R’, the attacker retreats all surviving defending land units 1 hex (even if
disorganized). You retreat units individually and you can retreat them into different hexes. You can’t retreat a unit into a hex it couldn’t move into.
If a unit could retreat into several hexes, you must retreat it according to these priorities:
1. a hex not in an enemy ZOC and not causing over-stacking.
2. a hex not in enemy ZOC and causing over-stacking.
3. a hex in an enemy ZOC containing a friendly land unit and not causing over stacking.
4. a hex in enemy ZOC containing a friendly land unit and causing over stacking.
[Clarification. A unit cannot retreat “back into” the hex from which it started its retreat. Note that #2 takes
precedence over #3, which can result in units being overstacked (and destroyed) even though a #3 retreat path exists which would not destroy any units. There are no overstacked hexes at the end of this step, because as part of this step, units are destroyed rather than remain overstacked - Nov. 29, 2007. The attacker may choose a retreat path of #4 priority hexes that results in a retreating unit being destroyed due to overstacking, even if an alternative path of #4 priority hexes exists that lets the units survive - Mar. 7, 2008.] [Deviation. If a unit can be safely retreated, then the attacker has to do so. This overrides and replaces the last sentence in the preceding clarification.]
Destroy a unit if it can’t retreat under any of these priorities. [Clarification. If overstacking causes units to
be destroyed, retreating units are destroyed - Mar. 7, 2008.]

If the unit ends in a hex which is still to be attacked, or where it is overstacked, continue retreating the unit
according to the same priorities (or destroy it if this is not possible).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Orm -- 8/28/2019 8:17:00 AM >

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 619
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 8:32:31 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Thanks.

Let’s say SE of Paris is only 6-4 INF and division. Can Germany choose HQ to retreat hex with MECH or does HQ retreat safe?



_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 620
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 8:47:13 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer_slith

Thanks.

Let’s say SE of Paris is only 6-4 INF and division. Can Germany choose HQ to retreat hex with MECH or does HQ retreat safe?



This is an answer which depends on whether you play WIF, or MWIF.


- In World in Flames, the boardgame; The German player can select the MECH hex and cause the HQ to be destroyed.

- In World in Flames, the computer game; There is a deviation that forbids the German player to retreat it to a hex where it will be destroyed if there is a hex of the same priority where it survives.


So, yes, if the hex SE of Paris had only a 6-4 INF and division, then Germany could not have retreated the HQ so it was destroyed.

Note that Germany didn't even get a chance to select the retreat hex in the attack above. MWIF selected it for him. And MWIF would have selected the hex in this example as well. Only time the attacker actually gets to decide on the hex is when there are multiple hexes of equal priority that the unit can be retreated into.

< Message edited by Orm -- 8/28/2019 8:48:36 AM >

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 621
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 2:44:02 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Thank you again. Next time I do it differently.

I don’t think this matters much, I think Paris falls this turn.

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 622
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 2:47:07 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Nice, how you've trapped Georges...




< Message edited by Centuur -- 8/28/2019 2:48:36 PM >

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Peter

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 623
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 3:31:16 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Losing initiative costed a lot for Allies.

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 624
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/28/2019 6:12:24 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer_slith

Losing initiative costed a lot for Allies.

Indeed.

Although the odds, I think, was slightly in favour of Axis when it came to winning the initiative.

And Axis were a bit unlucky in last turn ending early, and if it hadn't ended, the Germans might have taken advantage of the situation back then.

With that said I am not sure if what Axis won this impulse was worth the cost. Japan have had some interesting situation when we could have gone first but didn't because we wanted as good a chance of possible to win the initiative during this summer. So one could say that Japan paid for the French losses.



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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 625
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/29/2019 5:23:59 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Odds for turn ending before new Axis impulse was about same as Axis winning initiative.

Turn ending with 3 or 4: 1-(0,7x0,6)= 58%

With half pass it would have been 65%.

< Message edited by Mayhemizer_slith -- 8/29/2019 5:24:20 AM >

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 626
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/29/2019 6:32:50 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Indeed.

But if we hadn't ended it. Then the initiative would have been at Axis +2 and a greater chance of winning the initiative this impulse. And at +2 we would probably have demanded a re-roll if we had lost the first initiative roll.

Anyway. I am not complaining about a short turn. I am just saying that events tie together. That is why I like MWIF a lot.

xxxxx

By the way. Am I correct in thinking that if it ends before 100% then you guys have a bit of luck, and if it ends after 100% we have a bit of luck? And that 100% is the neutral sweet spot that is actually extremely rare?

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 627
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/29/2019 3:15:08 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Some summer turns are long, some are longer (at least for French nothing seems to be short enough).

Odds for turn not to end during first three rolls (in J/A) is 0,9 x 0,8 x 0,7 = 50,4%

Odds for turn not to end during first five rolls is 15,1%.

Those very long turns are very rare. Or at least should be.

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 628
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/29/2019 8:15:15 PM   
cfinch

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 6/9/2016
Status: offline 		i read the aar with much anticipation as it has been a long time since i've played

I read this - Odds for turn not to end during first three rolls (in J/A) is 0,9 x 0,8 x 0,7 = 50,4%

and was wondering if my memory was wrong, each player rolls for turn end during the impulse but does it change so quickly in summer? I thought (assume GE gets impulse 1) it was ge - 10% to end, then UK 10%, then 20%/20% then 30/30 etc?
from the above it seems you would only on average get 2 impulses in summer as the GE in 40 (1st and 3rd) as even if it continues (50% per above) the allies will normally end it on impulse 4?

thanks!

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 629
RE: Rematch 4 player game (Orm, Peskpesk, jjdenver and ... - 8/30/2019 12:14:10 AM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Unless there's a spate of bad weather and the turn advances quickly, you're usually very likely to get at least four impulses if you moved first, and three if you moved second.

The reason for this is that you don't start rolling to see if the turn ends straight away.

I've attached the initiative form from the game so you can see. On these long summer turns, the impulse advances one space along the "track" (in the tabletop game, there's an actual chart on which you move a counter to track this), so for several impulses, there's no chance of the turn ending, until you get to the point where a roll of -1 or less ends the turn. (Your entire side has to pass to make it possible to end the turn that early.)






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~ Composer99

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