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Old timer with a noob question - 4/9/2019 9:42:15 PM

Miller

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I know when rebuilding destroyed ground divisions you use up armament points, my question is does it consume any (or lots) of supply as well?

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/9/2019 9:59:10 PM

btd64

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Japans side? I'm no expert with the Japanese side, but yes, lots of supply. and manpower....GP

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/9/2019 10:00:00 PM

btd64

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haven't seen you post in a long time. Welcome back....GP

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/9/2019 10:44:33 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller
I know when rebuilding destroyed ground divisions you use up armament points, my question is does it consume any (or lots) of supply as well?

Yes, lots. Manual 15.1 and 16.4 mention supply usage, but no quantification

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/9/2019 10:59:48 PM

Miller

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Thank you.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/9/2019 11:00:42 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

haven't seen you post in a long time. Welcome back....GP

I've never been away, I have a game going at the minute in the AAR section.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/9/2019 11:04:43 PM

btd64

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

haven't seen you post in a long time. Welcome back....GP

I've never been away, I have a game going at the minute in the AAR section.

I don't read the AAR'S that much lately....GP

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/10/2019 1:05:42 AM

jdsrae

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From: Gandangara Country
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Armament, vehicle and manpower points are all inputs based on the load cost of the squad/vehicle/artillery piece etc.
I�ve not yet analysed it in detail yet but the large numbers of Japanese reinforcement units that arrive from 1943 and increase in 44 and 45 will need large pools of all inputs to be accumulated from day 1 in order to fill them all out, not counting battle losses.
The rules of thumb I�ve seen from people who�ve already done the analysis are that vehicle factories need to expand to about 240, armaments can be reduced to about 380 and manpower will be in excess so isn�t worth worrying about. Supply stockpiles in Japan need to be in the millions, up to something like 10million as a target by 1945.

16.4 says that excess supply (more than double the base need) is �used� but no mention of how much.
My guess is that the supply use rate is also related to the load cost of each squad/device, which helps explain the high supply stockpile target in Japan as it will start to be used up by more air and land units arriving and operating even before the fighting comes.

Howay the Toon! One win and a draw should see them safe.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/10/2019 10:20:28 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

I know when rebuilding destroyed ground divisions you use up armament points, my question is does it consume any (or lots) of supply as well?

It does take a lot of supply to fill out new or recently depleted units. For the 16th IJA ID shown below it would be the equivalent of the load cost; 18,890 supply to fill out 1,069 devices.

For the 1,069 devices this would be (on average) 17.67 supply per device.

There are some days in the last 6 months of the war for Japan when 15-20 IDs plus other units arrive on a single day. They are smaller IDs, but even if they are 15k load cost, filling out ten of them could be 100k supply (assuming they arrive 1/3 full).

Added to that would be the cost of replacing destroyed devices in active units. Then the supply used to replace airframes for new units and active units. It's a lot. (30 supply for a LB bi-plane in a training unit!!

)

This is from Alfred's logistics 101:

(D.4) Cost of replacements

The basic supply cost for a LCU replacement device is the load cost.

For air units, the supply cost for each replacement airframe depends on the type of airframe:

� 12 supply points for fighter, fighter bomber
� 15 supply points for dive bomber, torpedo bomber, float plane, float fighter
� 18 supply points for night fighter, recon
� 30 supply points for heavy bomber, medium bomber, light bomber, attack bomber, transport, patrol

Thus the previously mentioned 12 plane Liberator squadron (see D.2 above) consumed 96 supply points to fly the mission. If the squadron had 4 planes shot down, it would need an additional 120 supply points to replace it�s losses.

A division of about 450 AV, which is not engaged in combat will consume approximately 1500 supply points monthly, or 50 daily. A brigade of approximately 150 AV not engaged in combat will consume approximately 500 supply points monthly.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/10/2019 12:16:26 PM

PaxMondo

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As Obvert notes, supply usage is based upon Load Cost (LC) and type of unit (squad or other device). Ditto for ARM/VEH and MP points to be consumed. The numbers get very large for division sized units. That is why I do not advise new players to ever turn off ARM production. 100,000 seems large, but it represents fewer devices than you think and as the IJ in the late war you get more than you expect. Crap though they are due to EXP, they still cost the same.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/10/2019 2:02:09 PM

LargeSlowTarget

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Supply stockpiles in Japan need to be in the millions, up to something like 10million as a target by 1945.

10 million?

Just wondering how it is possible to stockpile 10 million supply points in Japan alone by 1945 when a Japanese player also needs to conquer China, India, Australia and the South Pacific Islands by the end of 1942 and sinking the US pre-war carrier fleet in the process, must produce at least 3000 Sam and Frank-r fighters per month by the end of 1943, and need to accelerate shipbuilding to get all carriers, Musashi, all CLs and all fleet DDs before 1944 - all this in order to make it into 1945 in the first place!

Heck, I'm in April 1944, I have two-thirds of China and the Frank-r, but never got to India or the South Pacific, haven't killed any USN carrier, don't even research the Sam, stopped all shipbuilding except MTBs - and have less than 2 million supply points in the entire theatre. I suddenly feel so depressed...

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/10/2019 9:59:17 PM

Miller

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Thanks for all the info guys. I was asking because I'm getting a lot of junk divs now both in the HI and Manchuria. I have plenty of Arm points in the pool but at this stage of the game I think its pointless building them up if they are going to suck up a load of supply in the process.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/10/2019 10:02:45 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Howay the Toon! One win and a draw should see them safe.

Yes, followed by yet another season of making up the numbers in the PL. Outside of the top 6 it's just a constant battle to survive. Who do you support?

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 12:37:23 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller
I know when rebuilding destroyed ground divisions you use up armament points, my question is does it consume any (or lots) of supply as well?

Yes, lots. Manual 15.1 and 16.4 mention supply usage, but no quantification

IIRC it is equivalent to load cost.

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Post #: 14

RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 4:04:43 AM

jdsrae

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From: Gandangara Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Howay the Toon! One win and a draw should see them safe.

Yes, followed by yet another season of making up the numbers in the PL. Outside of the top 6 it's just a constant battle to survive. Who do you support?

Newcastle. Started following them in about 95 when they were good!
I moved there to live and work for nearly two years but mainly to watch the football. Now wife wanted to live in Edinburgh but I�d applied for a season ticket thinking it would take a few years to get one and before we left Aus a bunch of money disappeared from my credit card one night!
Seasons 05/06 and 06/07 I think. Got to see some legends play like Shearer and Solano.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 7:42:49 AM

Barb

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Being at the start of April 1944 with about 300k supply in Tokyo (I am not sure about the total in Empire), and armament production turned off with 3x the expected usage (based on arrivals and current replacements needed) to save on HI...
Well, we will see... Anybody knows about a secret supply hoard to be discovered? :D

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 12:01:39 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb
Well, we will see... Anybody knows about a secret supply hoard to be discovered? :D

Sure. When I captured AI San Francisco, there was 13 mln supply waiting for me there

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 12:17:34 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb
Well, we will see... Anybody knows about a secret supply hoard to be discovered? :D

Sure. When I captured AI San Francisco, there was 13 mln supply waiting for me there

You must have captured it early. In October '45 its sporting 26m supply in my current game.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 3:15:13 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Howay the Toon! One win and a draw should see them safe.

Yes, followed by yet another season of making up the numbers in the PL. Outside of the top 6 it's just a constant battle to survive. Who do you support?

Newcastle. Started following them in about 95 when they were good!
I moved there to live and work for nearly two years but mainly to watch the football. Now wife wanted to live in Edinburgh but I�d applied for a season ticket thinking it would take a few years to get one and before we left Aus a bunch of money disappeared from my credit card one night!
Seasons 05/06 and 06/07 I think. Got to see some legends play like Shearer and Solano.

Not much to cheer about them nowadays. They last won something meaningful in 1969, I was born in 73 and I think I will be a pile of ash before they win anything meaningful again

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Post #: 19

RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 6:59:50 PM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Supply stockpiles in Japan need to be in the millions, up to something like 10million as a target by 1945.

10 million?

Just wondering how it is possible to stockpile 10 million supply points in Japan alone by 1945 when a Japanese player also needs to conquer China, India, Australia and the South Pacific Islands by the end of 1942 and sinking the US pre-war carrier fleet in the process, must produce at least 3000 Sam and Frank-r fighters per month by the end of 1943, and need to accelerate shipbuilding to get all carriers, Musashi, all CLs and all fleet DDs before 1944 - all this in order to make it into 1945 in the first place!

Heck, I'm in April 1944, I have two-thirds of China and the Frank-r, but never got to India or the South Pacific, haven't killed any USN carrier, don't even research the Sam, stopped all shipbuilding except MTBs - and have less than 2 million supply points in the entire theatre. I suddenly feel so depressed...

Yeah, I doubt 10M is doable, but 2M in Apr'44 sounds like trouble. I'd say you need at least double that. I for one shoot for 5-6M in that timeframe. Hope I can make it.

I've got 3.7M in May '43 against the AI. I know that's easier, but I've done some things to expend supply I normally wouldn't. For instance I took Midway, not something I'd normally do in a game. I also changed aircraft production back and forth to 'burn' extra supply, just to make things 'difficult' by overspending. I imagine that I'd have to spend more in a PBEM reacting to my opponent at some point, so I've done some of this to try and compensate.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 7:09:03 PM

rustysi

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quote:

armaments can be reduced to about 380

I'd only do this on a temporary basis. You'll need it all eventually. I've 211k stockpiled in May '43, and that may be low. I intend to turn all my ARM back on starting in July. Want it over 300K going into '44. If I can spare the supply I may raise output to 7-750. I think it'll be needed in the latter months.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 7:14:18 PM

rustysi

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quote:

produce at least 3000 Sam and Frank-r fighters per month by the end of 1943

I would doubt that's sustainable as well. However I will shoot for about 11-1200/month, which is what Japan did historically. Maybe a few more as I believe I'm below historical output to date.

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RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/11/2019 10:27:51 PM

jdsrae

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I�m developing a supply use forecast model now to inform my decisions and everywhere I look there is something else that burns supply!
I too doubt supply stockpile above about 5M is achievable in Japan without something failing on the front line somewhere.
Even then just feeding all the reinforcements that Japan gets, equipping them, equipping new airgroups that arrive, without even firing a shot is something I�m trying to measure and plot on a graph so I can adjust as I go. At some point even if you try and save supply the home Army and Air Force will be so big supply might plateau or run at a deficit. Especially if you re-raise units destroyed on the front somewhere. Lucky I like playing in spreadsheets!

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Post #: 23

RE: Old timer with a noob question - 4/13/2019 5:11:35 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Even then just feeding all the reinforcements that Japan gets, equipping them, equipping new airgroups that arrive, without even firing a shot is something I�m trying to measure

Tell me about it. Its one reason I advocate expansion of Japan industries in some areas, not a lot but in some places it just makes sense. At least to me. I know others will argue the other way.

quote:

re-raise units destroyed on the front

From what I've read, Japan can't do much of this at the divisional level, too expensive. As for all those little units, I imagine a lot could be done here, if one keeps an eye on the ARM pool.