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RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/15/2019 1:05:54 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Sorry to say CB is wrong here. Steve the units to which you refer are in fact unrestricted.


So I haven't opened up the Allied side in a while and may be misremembering this. It's certainly possible. But I doubt that these units are "unrestricted" in the language text of their command. They are more likely to be "Chinese" HQ, but in yellow with the ability to 'buy 'em out'. Won't know until I open it up. A screenshot disproving this would be helpful too.

But that isn't 'unrestricted', for many game HRs deal with movement outside of original borders. So, move 'em out of China command to an unrestricted command=gotta buy 'em out for PP.

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RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/15/2019 1:13:49 AM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Sorry to say CB is wrong here. Steve the units to which you refer are in fact unrestricted.


So I haven't opened up the Allied side in a while and may be misremembering this. It's certainly possible. But I doubt that these units are "unrestricted" in the language text of their command. They are more likely to be "Chinese" HQ, but in yellow with the ability to 'buy 'em out'. Won't know until I open it up. A screenshot disproving this would be helpful too.

But that isn't 'unrestricted', for many game HRs deal with movement outside of original borders. So, move 'em out of China command to an unrestricted command=gotta buy 'em out for PP.



Frankly , even if I didn't have to, I still would. Not doing it just wouldn't be right. Even in a no rules PBEM like I'm playing now.

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Post #: 32
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/15/2019 1:49:26 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		Depends on the house rule I guess but at least some of the units don’t start “unrestricted” as they are subordinate to War Areas or other HQ within China Command. I’ll check my spreadsheet!
Also, allies need time and supply to fill some of these units out. I’ll check that to...

Edit:
Results below. All units, even HQ NCAC starts subordinate to China Command so depending on the house rule, some people may say you need to buy out that HQ to SE Asia Command before using any NCAC units in Burma.
If anyone tried to draw the command structure between the UK, US and China in this theatre it would look like a bowl of spaghetti.
Units that withdraw early aren't worth spending supply on filling out as you don't get the supply back when the devices go back to the pool.
As a general rule I don't usually fill out any unit that withdraws and just use them in garrison roles.

I didn't create this today I just added a few notes to my spreadsheet from years ago which I use to organise myself before issuing orders in game.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 4/15/2019 2:31:32 AM >

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Post #: 33
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/15/2019 8:08:04 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Sorry to say CB is wrong here. Steve the units to which you refer are in fact unrestricted.


So I haven't opened up the Allied side in a while and may be misremembering this. It's certainly possible. But I doubt that these units are "unrestricted" in the language text of their command. They are more likely to be "Chinese" HQ, but in yellow with the ability to 'buy 'em out'. Won't know until I open it up. A screenshot disproving this would be helpful too.

But that isn't 'unrestricted', for many game HRs deal with movement outside of original borders. So, move 'em out of China command to an unrestricted command=gotta buy 'em out for PP.


Well I opened the Allied side for a 08Dec42 game and you are absolutely correct. It is I who is wrong. That's what I get for just checking my current AI game and seeing the units attached to the NCAC HQ which is unrestricted. Didn't think the AI cared or changed things WRT HQ's.

Mea culpa.




_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 34
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/15/2019 8:27:07 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		So the above being said I've come up with a somewhat sneaky why of getting these units out cheaply. Now I only mention this because I advocate early infiltration of Japanese lines anyway. What I mean is I think its a good idea to add some more confusion to the front lines in China than already exist at the start of the game. So I would push a few units through the porous front before it solidifies in order to create as much supply problems for Japan as possible. These units, being at least some of the ones that could be brought out, would probably be eliminated in a relatively short time anyway and could therefore be brought on the cheap when they respawn.

This is however something I would have to look into as some of the units are so weak that they may be brought out quite cheaply anyway. One is only 34 PP's if I recall when I looked. OTOH only one is 'expensive' and that's the only one I saw that would eventually reach a full sized Chinese corps unit. Its cost was 600.

Another thing I noticed is that most units were sadly equipped and were capable of being airlifted to 'safety'. You could move them to an airbase near the border for a move at anytime, and by not giving them replacements in the meantime their cost wouldn't change that much. Only WRT recovered disablements. So that could be a way to get them out even if the border is sealed.

Just some more thoughts.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 35
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/16/2019 12:47:07 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So the above being said I've come up with a somewhat sneaky why of getting these units out cheaply. Now I only mention this because I advocate early infiltration of Japanese lines anyway. What I mean is I think its a good idea to add some more confusion to the front lines in China than already exist at the start of the game. So I would push a few units through the porous front before it solidifies in order to create as much supply problems for Japan as possible. These units, being at least some of the ones that could be brought out, would probably be eliminated in a relatively short time anyway and could therefore be brought on the cheap when they respawn.

This is however something I would have to look into as some of the units are so weak that they may be brought out quite cheaply anyway. One is only 34 PP's if I recall when I looked. OTOH only one is 'expensive' and that's the only one I saw that would eventually reach a full sized Chinese corps unit. Its cost was 600.

Another thing I noticed is that most units were sadly equipped and were capable of being airlifted to 'safety'. You could move them to an airbase near the border for a move at anytime, and by not giving them replacements in the meantime their cost wouldn't change that much. Only WRT recovered disablements. So that could be a way to get them out even if the border is sealed.

Just some more thoughts.


Rustyi,

Do all Allied HQ types operate equally effectively in providing replacement squads to fleshing these guys out? In other words, do you *also* buy out a Chinese HQ unit to exfiltrate them, or do you just rely on Indian / American / British / Other Allied HQs to build 'em?


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Post #: 36
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/18/2019 5:41:57 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		AFAIK support is support, but as you may be aware I've never played the Allies. Still trying to learn Japan, although I think I'm finally done. At least as done as one can be.

The one thing I'm aware of is that China gets that NCAC HQ as a reinforcement and that's non-restricted. It comes pretty early in the game, but I'm not exactly sure when. I didn't recall seeing any other Chinese HQ's that could be used. IOW they were all permanently restricted.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 4/18/2019 5:42:57 PM >

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 37
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/18/2019 6:38:00 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		X-Force and Y-Force can be bought out as well.

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Hans


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Post #: 38
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/18/2019 6:43:22 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

X-Force and Y-Force can be bought out as well.


Thanks for the info.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 39
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/23/2019 4:19:58 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Thanks guys.

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Post #: 40
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/27/2019 8:20:43 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So the above being said I've come up with a somewhat sneaky why of getting these units out cheaply. Now I only mention this because I advocate early infiltration of Japanese lines anyway. What I mean is I think its a good idea to add some more confusion to the front lines in China than already exist at the start of the game. So I would push a few units through the porous front before it solidifies in order to create as much supply problems for Japan as possible. These units, being at least some of the ones that could be brought out, would probably be eliminated in a relatively short time anyway and could therefore be brought on the cheap when they respawn.

This is however something I would have to look into as some of the units are so weak that they may be brought out quite cheaply anyway. One is only 34 PP's if I recall when I looked. OTOH only one is 'expensive' and that's the only one I saw that would eventually reach a full sized Chinese corps unit. Its cost was 600.

Another thing I noticed is that most units were sadly equipped and were capable of being airlifted to 'safety'. You could move them to an airbase near the border for a move at anytime, and by not giving them replacements in the meantime their cost wouldn't change that much. Only WRT recovered disablements. So that could be a way to get them out even if the border is sealed.

Just some more thoughts.


Rustyi,

Do all Allied HQ types operate equally effectively in providing replacement squads to fleshing these guys out? In other words, do you *also* buy out a Chinese HQ unit to exfiltrate them, or do you just rely on Indian / American / British / Other Allied HQs to build 'em?



To flesh them out you need two things: the devices in the pools and supply. Say, you lost all of China and all Chinese HQs were destroyed in the process but you evacuated a handful of Chinese LCUs to India. You can rebuild the LCUs in India. Best place to rebuild them would be Bombay, which is India's biggest port and accumulates supply surplus. With 20,000 supplies at hand at all times in Bombay, you should be able to add 5-6 devices per LCU per day.

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Post #: 41
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/27/2019 10:29:04 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		HQ NCAC arrives 1 Apr 42 attached to China Command, but in yellow so you can change it with PP.
X and Y Force both arrive 1 May 43 attached to NCAC and China Command respectively.
Under the common house rule for borders does that mean HQ NCAC, X Force and Y Force need to be bought out to SE Asia Command or similar before crossing into Burma?
In real life that didn’t happen. Chinese units stayed under command of China from Chungking, but with many in-game permanently restricted Chinese units forming part of the historical Y Force (2,8,53,54,71 Corps and 11, 20 Group Army HQ) under that house rule I assume that the allied player can’t put the historic Y Force into northern Burma at all.

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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Post #: 42
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/27/2019 1:20:19 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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From: Florida, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

HQ NCAC arrives 1 Apr 42 attached to China Command, but in yellow so you can change it with PP.
X and Y Force both arrive 1 May 43 attached to NCAC and China Command respectively.
Under the common house rule for borders does that mean HQ NCAC, X Force and Y Force need to be bought out to SE Asia Command or similar before crossing into Burma?
In real life that didn’t happen. Chinese units stayed under command of China from Chungking, but with many in-game permanently restricted Chinese units forming part of the historical Y Force (2,8,53,54,71 Corps and 11, 20 Group Army HQ) under that house rule I assume that the allied player can’t put the historic Y Force into northern Burma at all.


My interpretation (and it may be wrong) is ANY unit that is bought out can be moved out of China to wherever the Allied player wants. The HQ is irrelevant. But, the HQ must be bought out, too, if it will move out of China.

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Post #: 43
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/27/2019 7:19:28 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

HQ NCAC arrives 1 Apr 42 attached to China Command, but in yellow so you can change it with PP.
X and Y Force both arrive 1 May 43 attached to NCAC and China Command respectively.


Thanks for the info.

quote:

Under the common house rule for borders does that mean HQ NCAC, X Force and Y Force need to be bought out to SE Asia Command or similar before crossing into Burma?


That's the usual intent for such an HR, so yes.

quote:

but with many in-game permanently restricted Chinese units forming part of the historical Y Force (2,8,53,54,71 Corps and 11, 20 Group Army HQ) under that house rule I assume that the allied player can’t put the historic Y Force into northern Burma at all.


Yeah, this is where things get messy. By buying out Y Force I'm pretty sure all those other units attached would now be eligible to be brought out, and at a reduced cost no less. In that case I would say Y Force should not be brought out. I mean really do the Chinese really need that HQ anyway. Any Allied HQ would serve the same function.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 4/27/2019 7:20:20 PM >

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Uncivil Engineer)
Post #: 44
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 7:24:22 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I don't intend to turn this thread into an AAR, but I've noticed something I think Steve is unaware of and needs to fix. I keep seeing combat adjustments punishing him for lack of preparation at bases he's defending.




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RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 7:25:14 PM   
geofflambert


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Post #: 46
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 7:25:46 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 7:26:22 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 7:30:07 PM   
geofflambert


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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		As the Japanese I rarely target a base I'm going to attack (which begins the planning process) because about half the time American intel finds out about it, especially if I set a unit to plan for a target before they've begun loading on a ship to go to or near that destination, and I don't want him to see me coming. The Allied player needn't worry about that as the Japanese have no intel.

In the case of Kunming, I surrounded it first and then began the planning process, just bombarding the place and bombing the airfield from the air. This was a probing attack because I knew he had supply problems and I wanted to test him. Obviously I'm not near taking the place but after a while and once I get my replacements, I'll do it again and knock his fortifications down to level 4.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/28/2019 7:38:10 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 8:00:49 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

.





I think the reason they started off at 33% Prep was due to having their HQ preparation for the target applied. HQ bonus!

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RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 8:04:14 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I don't intend to turn this thread into an AAR, but I've noticed something I think Steve is unaware of and needs to fix. I keep seeing combat adjustments punishing him for lack of preparation at bases he's defending.



He *could* be planning on / prepping for fallback positions after he leaves Kunming. I'd mention it in passing, but there may be a rationale other than the fact that it was just overlooked.

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Post #: 51
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 8:43:01 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
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From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		I read somewhere that unit experience level is a big factor in saving some prep %.
Experienced staff officers know how to use Ctrl C and Ctrl P to save 33% of the last OPORD whereas the rookies start it from scratch

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Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
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Post #: 52
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 8:43:56 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		He's completely surrounded. The only other base in China he still holds is Chunking. He's not going anywhere. But this thread is about him asking for help and I think he needs it here. He's holding Akyab still and I might want to take it. If he hasn't targeted the troops there to Akyab, he needs to do it now.

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Post #: 53
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 8:46:42 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/28/2019 8:49:54 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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Status: offline 		Here's hexside control




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Post #: 55
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/29/2019 9:43:34 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I read somewhere that unit experience level is a big factor in saving some prep %.


This and other factors IIRC. This was a later change so I don't think its in the manual, but it is written somewhere. Probably the patch notes. I know Alfred listed criteria somewhere, but I've no time to look it up at the moment. I'll try later if no one else has a chance.

quote:

As the Japanese I rarely target a base I'm going to attack (which begins the planning process) because about half the time American intel finds out about it


quote:

and I don't want him to see me coming.


I disagree with this, more often than not the Allied player is going to 'see' you coming. I'd only advocate such a tactic in extreme cases, such as a west coast invasion. Most Japanese 'targets' are obvious.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 56
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/29/2019 10:12:03 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I'd sure like to see him coming, and his targets are obvious too, he just has too many to do them all.

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Post #: 57
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/30/2019 12:28:44 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

.





I think the reason they started off at 33% Prep was due to having their HQ preparation for the target applied. HQ bonus!

This is all a good series of points. Many of my units were NOT set to where they were. I had thought they were.

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Post #: 58
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/30/2019 12:36:56 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's hexside control






These screen captures are a bit of a shock. They are NOT exactly what I'm seeing. My brit units do not appear surrounded. I assumed that if you were engaged with enemy forces , you didn't need to recon them to see that there is someone there , only to see how much. That was a VERT poor assumption.

I'm also having some difficulty wrapping my head around the concept that you apparently can't disengage , and if you could , you can't move into an adjacent hex with small numbers and AV's of units. No fighting withdrawals allowed. Which explains why my "brilliant" plans of "fighting withdrawals" in the PI and Malaya didn't work. My guess is that I fell into the "WITP Trap". That is, this is a game not a simulation. Reality might not be modeled due to programing inabilities
.

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Post #: 59
RE: LCU beginner thread - 4/30/2019 12:38:24 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Once again , Thank you to everyone who's contributed to this thread and tried to help me. I think I've figured out my problem. I simply suck at this game.

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