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RE: Naval Support doesn't show up

 
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RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/25/2019 2:47:51 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Okay, my mistake.

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 31
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/26/2019 10:32:21 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Thanks for clarifying. I obviously overestimated naval support. Thought it could compensate for port size.


It is a bit tricky, so please refer to pages 125 and 126 of the manual. The key elements would be:

1) The daily max of 11250 (a size 3 port) applies to all TFs in the port. It's an overall limit, and is different from the per-ship value.

2) For ease of analysis, lets just look at the cargo portion of the unload algorithm. The per-ship cargo value is 300 per 12 hour phase. So no more than 600 per day. In your example, it would take 6.5 days to unload one of those ships carrying 3900 supply. Which is exactly what you are seeing (check the chart on page 126).

3) However, Naval Support adds 10 points per element to each of the troop and cargo limits (but NOT to the overall daily port limit). Since you have 50 NS units (and if my reading of the manual is correct), there should an increase from 300 to 800 per 12 hour impulse (or 1600/day), but that definitely didn't happen.

All of that assumes you did not have other TFs present, as they would have contributed to the daily limit and would invalidate the analysis. That aside, it appears that you are correct. Naval support does NOT help in the unloading of cargo (and presumably troops) if it does not display in these bugged (0) ports.

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(in reply to Balou)
Post #: 32
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/27/2019 8:29:11 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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Start a grand campaign as the Allies

Choose the non-historical start.

Go to Pearl Harbor. Find the Pacific Command HQ there. It is a command HQ with range of 9 and lots of naval support. This naval support is given to bases in 9 hex range from PH.

Go to Lanai (port level 0) and check if you see any naval support on the base screen.

I see 0 (zero) naval support there.

Running the latest beta.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 33
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/27/2019 6:41:15 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

Naval support does NOT help in the unloading of cargo (and presumably troops) if it does not display in these bugged (0) ports.


Exactly what I've been saying.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 34
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/27/2019 6:54:30 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Thanks for clarifying. I obviously overestimated naval support. Thought it could compensate for port size.


3) However, Naval Support adds 10 points per element to each of the troop and cargo limits (but NOT to the overall daily port limit). Since you have 50 NS units (and if my reading of the manual is correct), there should an increase from 300 to 800 per 12 hour impulse (or 1600/day), but that definitely didn't happen.

All of that assumes you did not have other TFs present, as they would have contributed to the daily limit and would invalidate the analysis. That aside, it appears that you are correct. Naval support does NOT help in the unloading of cargo (and presumably troops) if it does not display in these bugged (0) ports.


Although this sounds different from what I was told in post #15, thanks for your calculations.
I will now send out a shore patrol looking for the nav support gang. Xmas Isl. is under frequent aerial attacks from nearby Java. Maybe the support guys simply took cover in some shelter.

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(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 35
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/27/2019 7:28:26 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

Although this sounds different from what I was told in post #15,


Incorrect or misunderstood. It happens.

Here's Hans' post #10.

quote:

The bug crept back in. I'm running the latest beta patch and still have this issue.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Balou)
Post #: 36
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/27/2019 7:39:55 PM   
Balou


Posts: 841
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		"50 Naval Support is a drop in the bucket that will have a marginal impact at best."

I was talking of this one.

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(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 37
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/27/2019 8:19:50 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

"50 Naval Support is a drop in the bucket that will have a marginal impact at best."

I was talking of this one.


My attitude is always that some is better than none. But...

Fifty or 5000 is not going to make a difference if its not counted.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Balou)
Post #: 38
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/28/2019 4:28:47 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


Start a grand campaign as the Allies

Choose the non-historical start.

Go to Pearl Harbor. Find the Pacific Command HQ there. It is a command HQ with range of 9 and lots of naval support. This naval support is given to bases in 9 hex range from PH.

Go to Lanai (port level 0) and check if you see any naval support on the base screen.

I see 0 (zero) naval support there.

Running the latest beta.



this post made me look at the Hawaiian bases and I learned something about Naval HQs and Naval Support. Since I am using the last official patch naval support is working as designed, I believe.

I have two naval HQs in Pearl at the moment: Pacific Ocean Areas and 14th Naval District (DBB scenario). At one hex away (Molokai) half of the naval support those HQs offer is available. At two hexes, one third of that naval support is available. At three hexes, one quarter is available. At four hexes one fifth is available and at five hexes one sixth is available. I have no other bases in range to check, but I thought that I would share this tidbit since I was unable to find it mentioned in the manual.

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 4/28/2019 4:31:45 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 4/29/2019 3:26:16 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Unfortunately you are correct - it's not in the manual (although if you do a Forum search you'll find lots of posts on the subject). Here's one with the formula:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Naval Support from bases in command radius of Naval HQs (those w/naval support):

Naval Support / (range + 1)

Naval Support at a given base is ?
1 hex is 1/2 Naval Support
2 hex is 1/3 Naval Support
3 hex is 1/4 Naval Support





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Post #: 40
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/1/2019 5:34:40 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		My notes say it should work like this:

1 hex = 1/2
2 hex = 1/3
3 hex = 1/4
4 hex = 1/5
5 hex = 1/6
6 hex = 1/7
7 hex = 1/8
8 hex = 1/9
9 hex = 1/10

Also, I have found this screenshot from my test game played in March 2016. I moved Pac Command HQ to Pago-Pago to see how it would distribute its naval support to the bases in 9-hex range. I annotated the screenshot with NavSupport figures.As you can see, the Nav Support was present in the bases with 0 ports.



(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 41
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/1/2019 5:51:51 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

In the patch notes is this item:

48. Fix for ports with no potential to show 0 naval support/ shore parties

I do think you have some, but I am unsure.


I remember I had petitioned to have this specific bug amended. This is how the inland Dambulla on Ceylon looked prior to the patch. 71 Naval Support showing in Dambulla, thanks to Command HQ in Colombo, even though Dambulla has no port whatsoever. The patched bug has nothing to do with elligible ports i.e bases, which have access to a sea or river.



< Message edited by Yaab -- 5/1/2019 5:53:22 AM >

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 42
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/1/2019 6:20:33 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		OK, don't listen. I'm saying for the last time if a port has an initial SPS=0 in patch 1126b there WILL BE NO FUNCTIONING NS DEVICES FOR THAT PORT, no matter to what level you build the port.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 43
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 3:11:00 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Let's put the issue to rest, once and for all. I just ran a short test, and the data provides a conclusive answer.

The attachment below shows the key information, but to summarize:

1) This game uses the most recent Beta (1.8.1126b)

2) The test uses three different bases:
- Dutch Harbor has 250 Naval support (NS) but only 120 of that belongs to an HQ with a Command Radius (of 9)
- The closest base is Akutan Island, which is 1 hex distant and has a size 1(1) Port. It has no native NS, but does display the expected 60 NS derived from the nearby HQ in Dutch Harbor (as per the 1/2 distance factor)
- The other base in the test is Umnak Island, which is 2 hexes away and has a size 1(0) Port. Likewise, it has no native NS and (because of the size 0 bug) does not display the expected 40 NS derived from the nearby HQ in Dutch Harbor (as per the 1/3 distance factor)






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kull -- 5/2/2019 3:15:40 PM >

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(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 44
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 3:13:16 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		On Turn 1 of the test, 2 US AKLs - each with a cargo capacity of 1700 - were set to load supply in Dutch Harbor. By the start of T2, you can see they are docked at their respective destinations, one at Umnak Island and the other at Akutan Island (there are no other TFs at these locations). Both were set to Remain on Station, Do Not Refuel, and Do not Unload. That ensures there are no ops points expended and we can get a clean look at the unloading, since both AKLs will start the first impulse with a full cargo load.

As per the second table in the post above, we can expect to see one of two things:
- If Naval support is present at Umnak Island (but just not shown on the base info screen), the AKL should unload a total of 1000 supply this turn. Calculation: 100 per impulse + 400 (i.e. 40 NS x 10) x 2 impulses/day
- If Naval support is NOT present at Umnak Island, the AKL should unload a total of 200 supply this turn. Calculation: 100 per impulse x 2 impulses/day
- By contrast, we know what will happen at Akutan Island. The AKL will unload a total of 1400 supply this turn. Calculation: 100 per impulse + 600 (i.e. 60 NS x 10) x 2 impulses/day





Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 45
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 3:14:32 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		I hit end turn, and at the start of T3, here are the two AKLs, with the remaining cargo underlined in red. As you can see, the AKL at Umnak only unloaded 200 supply, which means that NS did NOT provide any assistance. By contrast, the AKL at Akutan only has 300 remaining, meaning that NS provided unloading assistance exactly as per the calculations.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 46
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 3:46:15 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline 		So it would appear I was wrong, but I did say I was not sure. I thought that micaaelm only suppressed the display. It is good to know the final result.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 47
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 6:36:18 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		This is excellent and detailed testing to demonstrate that the problem does exist in the latest Beta patch. Question for the gallery. Do we know exactly which patch/release the problem was introduced in?

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Post #: 48
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 7:16:36 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Thank you for confirming that a year ago in game time I completely wasted one of my four Fleet Support Bases with 432 Naval support by stationing it at Agrihan in the hope of turning its already inflated by the scenario designer port level of 5 into a much better port for supporting all of my subsequent action in the theater.

In truth, even with the wasted Naval Support, the level 5 port served me well until it was supplanted by Naha as the main forward hub port. Naha has one the other of the four mega naval base units.

Guess I go ahead now and load up the base force and get it somewhere it can be useful.

Maybe Shanghai...or even better Kumamoto, where it can move overland to Nagasaki once it falls.

I just advanced a full army Corp into Fukuoka and a full Corp of Marines are a day away from investing Nagasaki.

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Post #: 49
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 8:22:15 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Very good Kull. Thanks.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 50
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 8:33:19 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Thanks Kull.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 51
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/2/2019 8:37:09 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Do we know exactly which patch/release the problem was introduced in?


Not 100% sure. Keep in mind that the same patch fixed the Allied full unrep problem while at sea. Prior to the patch main naval guns had problems reloading. Allied FB's will need this in '45.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 52
RE: Naval Support doesn't show up - 5/3/2019 2:34:09 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		yep! wasted effort, and I even planned!

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 53
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