RE: How to fix the game.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 4/26/2019 8:50:51 PM

chaos45

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The migration is random, and not all points move some are lost....its really a pretty random thing. Not to mention a lot of the Manpower points do stay in the city and are lost and even those you might keep are randomly are left damaged and not producing for a long time.

That long time of no production is when the soviet manpower recruitment level is at the highest. Manpower points are worth far more in 41 and 42 than later years...by 44 due to manpower reductions if the soviets don't retake a lot of them their recruitment numbers plummet.

This is a game of mainly numbers and cascading effects really....basically the soviet army can afford to lose X number of men per week and still maintain the army in the field or grow the army. If you lose more men than X, which equals your replacement rate you are effectively getting weaker.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if you keep Moscow its somewhere around 100k men per week in 1942 give or take. Keeping in mind you will lose huge amount of Soviets every week to attrition even if the Germans take almost no action against you....this is due to the fact that attrition losses is based on NM/EXP of units which means that until late 43/44 soviet attrition losses will stay very large even with little combat.

In 1941 the soviets really cant afford to lose any major losses after the initial complete annihilation of the frontline by the Germans. Since the last patch reduced experience gain to 1 per week, you either have to pay tons of manpower you don't have to combat blood units and get a slightly fast exp growth so the units are combat capable by winter or try and keep every single trained division you have left over after the first 2 turns.

Now is the soviet situation impossible.....no but I do feel a couple tweaks are needed to balance things back abit...biggest one is the experience gain issue as this cascades into a whole range of problems for the soviets that last into mid 1942 and later. Secondly new formations in 1941 for the soviets should have abit higher random starting experience levels as these units were almost all formed from already trained personnel aside from the militia divisions.

The Barbarossa series by Nigel Askey is already showing some interesting things IMO....esp the decent amount of initial well trained soviets divisions that were mobilized from trained NKVD personnel which had approx. double the training and military time as reservists. Think he even says these were key divisions for the soviets in July as they were fully trained and fully equipped new divisions. This also goes into my opinion that the game underestimates soviet capabilities from Jun-Dec 41.

(in reply to A21)

Post #: 31

RE: How to fix the game. - 4/26/2019 10:16:43 PM

thedoctorking

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I have also felt that attrition was too high for Soviet units. After all, they're in their own country and presumably are more used to the weather, can get food from local civilians more easily than foreigners (especially in the Russian parts of the USSR). I would say they should have a bonus for attrition results in the USSR, maybe say in territory that was part of the USSR in 1939.

(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 32

RE: How to fix the game. - 4/27/2019 5:08:41 AM

Seminole

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quote:

Keeping in mind you will lose huge amount of Soviets every week to attrition even if the Germans take almost no action against you....this is due to the fact that attrition losses is based on NM/EXP of units which means that until late 43/44 soviet attrition losses will stay very large even with little combat.

Run a first turn with no German attacks and you'll see how bad it is...

(in reply to thedoctorking)

Post #: 33

RE: How to fix the game. - 5/19/2019 5:29:43 AM

chuckfourth

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Thank you for your suggestion Dinglir
So OK I set logistics to 400% and at the end of the third turn my armoured unit gets to the end of its tether up near Tallinn and now has 10 MPs instead of 2 so a little better, though obviously not exactly the same movements during this second test. To me this remains a extremely unlikely situation. Break out the Schnapps were staying here for a week. They could get a tank up there but not a fuel truck?

It's very simple.
Kraftwagenkolonnen can cover 125 miles in a day that translates into no supply penalties until the units are 40 hexes from the Railhead not 10 it's very simple, its very straightforward and its a fact.

Oh yes and of course the roads, don't you remember this helpful quote from No Idea thedoctorking.

"according to Glantz, the whole of European Russia had just 64.375 kms of asphalted roads". That is enough asphalt to cover 60 separate roads the distance of Moscow to Brest Litovsk. I assume that Glantz knows what he is talking about?
What I'm meant to believe here is that in heavily industrialised Russia, every autumn traffic between each and every city came to a complete halt because the roads all turned to mud. OK comrades break out the Vodka business stops now for a month. There would have been just as much if not more traffic on those roads before the Germans arrived and every year it just stopped for a few months? they couldn't manage to build a waterproof road to keep the economy running? Ridiculous. OH yes I forgot, of course they did actually build some, about 64.375 klms of them.

I realise there are air drops and HQ buildup, but that is irrelevant. This thread is specifically about the too short supply distance from a rail head before penalties kick in. It should be 40 not 10.

I am no expert agreed, and playbalance I leave to those that are, but the railhead supply range for Germans is clearly too short. Because good roads existed, the range of the Kraftwagenkolonnen and the petrol stations that serviced them. And of course the Germans spent a lot of time and effort improving what there was.

The Third ingredient is of course how much each division needs. Ammunition is the main cargo to be brought forward and then petrol But petrol can be sourced locally, The Russians used it as well, their petrol stations were full of it. Food of course can and was sourced locally.

so you shouldnt HAVE to resort to HQ and airdrops,

At the very least there needs to be a game option "remove the German supply nerfing and allow full HQ supply from railhead of 40 hexes" then I will play.

Hi Telemecus
Sorry I was unclear in my previous post. The problem is not artillery attachment as I wrongly said but wether or not that artillery participates in a particular battle. Which, if any, actual artillery units Participate in a particular battle is random. This is completely unrealistic.

Oh and Crackaces putting an Emoji at the end of your comment does not disguise your dogwhistling.
And to the member that personal messaged me and told me to kill myself I dont think I'll read any more of your messages

(in reply to Seminole)

Post #: 34

RE: How to fix the game. - 5/19/2019 5:56:16 AM

Dinglir

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I realize that you do not believe this is the case, but during WWII the situatios where Panzer's outrunning their supply services were extremely common.

For example:

In France 1940 during the race for the coast, the Panzer Divisions outran their supply services short of the coast. The men then left the Panzer behind and did the last few miles by foot (I believe it was Abbeville that fell this was, but I am not sure).

In Africa 1942 Rommel did not receive more than 10% of the fuel that was sent to him from Italy. The rest were lost at sea or guzzled up by the fuel trucks bringing forward fuel.

In Russia 1944 what stopped the Bagration offensive was the lack of fuel for the Soviet tanks. The Soviets simply could nnot continue to advance until their service infrastructure had been brought forward.

It was the same for the Germans in Russia 1941.

Remember that a Tank uses A LOT of fuel. With bridges blown up, roads mined and whatever aircraft the enemy had looking to interdict the supply columns it was no easy task to bring forward fuel for the Panzers. Every offensive during WWII and even today, will have a limit to how far it can go before running our of fuel.

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Post #: 35

RE: How to fix the game. - 5/19/2019 10:12:15 AM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth
Hi Telemecus
Sorry I was unclear in my previous post. The problem is not artillery attachment as I wrongly said but wether or not that artillery participates in a particular battle. Which, if any, actual artillery units Participate in a particular battle is random. This is completely unrealistic.

I had not really thought about this until you raised it. I know the manual describes it as a quid pro quo - when assigned to the corps HQ it is not guaranteed to fire in any one battle but has the chance to participate in many different battles in different hexes. So I can see it is seen as "fair." But I think I agree it does not match how a corps HQ would work - their raison d'etre was getting the corps artillery to the critical point. There are also times I would want them to not participate in a battle as well - for example to save them for the more important follow up battle. Thinking about it now I would have at least liked a toggle for use of SUs in next battle yes/no/probable - I would keep the probably option just for those who do not want to micromanage. Leaders ratings would then be about how many battles artillery could participate in rather than the probability they participate in any one. Probably beyond the code of WitE1 now.

There is also the option to directly assign SUs to units to guarantee they participate as well - and it then costs a point to deassign. But artillery and some other SUs are not given this option - why not? I can think of military histories where they describe corps artillery being delegated to a division commander. I think at least within the existing code this would be quite easy to alter through data alterations in the next patch?

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth
Oh and Crackaces putting an Emoji at the end of your comment does not disguise your dogwhistling.
And to the member that personal messaged me and told me to kill myself I dont think I'll read any more of your messages

I know Crackaces was not directing anything at you and I think it may have been to do with someone else from a previous occurrence. So rest assured they were not trying to offend you.

I would report the serious message to the staff - they can take action or monitor who is sending those messages.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/19/2019 10:59:30 AM >

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 36

RE: How to fix the game. - 5/20/2019 7:28:05 PM

thedoctorking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Oh yes and of course the roads, don't you remember this helpful quote from No Idea thedoctorking.

So if I have no idea, why have you not responded to my challenge? I would be happy to play you under the conditions you prefer.

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 37

RE: How to fix the game. - 5/28/2019 10:29:11 PM

tomeck48

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I basically play solitaire vs the AI and one thing I would like to see is to have the ability to set the Combat Resolution Message Level separately for the Axis and the Soviets. I mostly run the Soviets at 0 and the Axis (when playing Axis) at 2 or 3. It's just a pain to have to reset it every turn. I know, it's not a big deal (though the programming may be) but it's something I would like to see. Thanks.

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Post #: 38

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/2/2019 10:07:15 AM

chuckfourth

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Dinglir changing the un-penalised supply radius from the railhead from the punitive 10 to the actual 40 does NOT mean that panzers can't outrun their supply services.

So I am not saying that I want the game to make it impossible for the Panzers to outrun their supply services I am saying this.

Kraftwagenkolonnen can cover 125 miles in a day that translates into no supply penalties until the units are 40 hexes from the Railhead, not 10.

This needs to change. When its changed the panzers can still outrun their supply lines.
ie making this change does not equate to the German not being able to outrun their supply lines.

thedoctorking
Sorry for the misunderstanding, "No Idea" is the name of the poster that posted the ignored information from Glantz on the mileage of Bitumen roads in European Russia. Note that that is just bitumen roads, there would be at least the same if not several multiples of roads that though not bitumen are improved to the point where they are perfectly serviceable, in any weather.

I regretfully decline a game because I unfortunately wont enjoy a game where the supply range from the railhead has been limited to 10 to ensure the Germans run short of supply after 3 weeks. The conditions I would prefer (40 hex full supply range from railhead) are not available in the game.

I have had a good look at the game and it is a great game, but this unjustified supply restriction is a great disappointment to me. I live in hope.

Their is no justification supplied here or in any other thread as to why this range should not change form 10 to 40 hexes.

Overall the game should be a ferocious fight until the mud brings the Soviets a rest, It isn't. The soviets get their rest in week 3 that's about 4 months too early.

Operation Barbarosa was planed as a summer campaign, It was always to be won or lost in the short campaigning season before winter set in.

(in reply to tomeck48)

Post #: 39

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/2/2019 1:43:17 PM

Blubel2

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Moscow is about 60 hexes from the border. What you propose would enable the Germans to fully supply mobile divisions there after about 4 weeks. That is not historical. The Germans had huge supply problems in the vicinity of Smolensk.

The "Handbook of German military forces" was a handbook written by and for the US forces at the end of the war. In my opinion it states what the Germans were able to do in the best circumstances, as the Western Allies had a tendency to overestimate German capabilities. It states that they "can cover up to 125 miles a day", which is something else then stating that they could do this reliably on a daily basis. It also assumes good roades and (presumably) no enemy interference.

This is not what was the case in 1941 on the Eastern Front. While there were roads and there were also some good roads, the divisions which had to be supplied were not necessarily on them. While the truck driver might drive a truck nicely all the way to Smolensk he could get bogged down on the way to the small town or village 50 miles east of the city, were the division was which actually needed the fuel was fighting. That particular road might be bad or partly destroyed. There could also be scattered Soviet soldiers in the vicinity. Also the good roades were probably not meant to transport huge loads of goods. While the Soviet Union was industrilized and had to move huge amounts of goods, they did so mostly on train. Like the rest of the world until a relativly short time ago.
Also, the main German trucks (Opel Blitz, Ford B 3000, Mercedes L 3000) could transport about 3 tones of cargo. They had a tank of about 90 l and probably used more then 20 l per 60 miles. For the roundtrip you are suggesting they would have to use about one quarter of their loading capacity to bring their one fuel.

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 40

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/6/2019 1:46:35 AM

iwolfhound

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"After 19 days, they had lost 25% of their trucks."

"After another week that climbed to 33%."

The logistical reach was only 300 miles for the German Army.

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Post #: 41

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/9/2019 8:28:22 AM

chuckfourth

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Hi Bluebell

The Germans weren't at the gates of Moscow in 4 weeks because the Russians fought them, not because they ran out of supplies. The game is set up so the Russian is able to withdraw and consolidate, this is possible because the Germans run out of supplies. This is because the Kraftwagenkolonnen range is quartered.

Sure they were short of supplies here and there but in the game they are short of supplies everywhere from turn 3 on. Its too much.

The roads didn't defeat the Germans the Russians did, having the game set up so the Germans main opponent is the roads is boring.

The first campaigning season in Russia went this way, Stalin pushed everything he could into the mincing machine hoping to gum up the works or at least blunt the blades. That isn't how the game is set up unfortunately.

Besides being ridiculous this furphy about having to carry 1/4 load as petrol is flat out wrong. Read the quote in my original post. The Germans set up PETROL STATIONS. Not to mention that they had specific fuel Columns anyway, no doubt keeping the petrol stations nice and full.

They had just run right across Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, and the top of Africa, plenty of crap roads, as if they couldn't get supplies up to the front. Their logistics were top knoch.

iwolfhound
How many trucks they lost has nothing to do with the range of the Kraftwagenkolonnen.
That is taken care of elsewhere in the game, ie truck attrition. They operated way past 300 miles in North Africa my friend.

(in reply to iwolfhound)

Post #: 42

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/9/2019 11:43:19 AM

RedLancer

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@chuckfourth - I suggest you go and read Supplying War: Logistics From Wallenstein To Patton by Martin van Creveld as it explains in clearly and logically what people here are trying to tell you about military logistics. It has a chapter on Barbarossa and another on North Africa.

Personally I'd really like to see the map that shows all the petrol stations and good roads you believe existed in 1941. For WitE2 I have done a lot of map research and that is not what I have found. If you have something I've missed I'd love to see it...

Meanwhile I'll leave this quote from van Creveld.

Attachment (1)

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(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 43

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/9/2019 6:58:26 PM

tomeck48

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Hey chuckfourth. Here's my two cents worth. The Germans did not have an infinite amount of fuel. Whatever fuel went into those Petrol Stations was fuel that did not get into a panzer's fuel tank. As the Germans advanced further into Russia, the trucks had to use more fuel to get to the panzers.

And the eastern front didn't exist in a vacuum. The Luftwaffe needed fuel. The U-boats needed fuel. The civilian economy needed fuel. Too many demands on a limited resource.

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 44

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/9/2019 11:50:05 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

@chuckfourth - I suggest you go and read Supplying War: Logistics From Wallenstein To Patton by Martin van Creveld as it explains in clearly and logically what people here are trying to tell you about military logistics. It has a chapter on Barbarossa and another on North Africa.

Personally I'd really like to see the map that shows all the petrol stations and good roads you believe existed in 1941. For WitE2 I have done a lot of map research and that is not what I have found. If you have something I've missed I'd love to see it...

Meanwhile I'll leave this quote from van Creveld.

David Stahel's Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East covers the logistics as well.

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Post #: 45

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/10/2019 12:52:30 AM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The migration is random, and not all points move some are lost....its really a pretty random thing. Not to mention a lot of the Manpower points do stay in the city and are lost and even those you might keep are randomly are left damaged and not producing for a long time.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if you keep Moscow its somewhere around 100k men per week in 1942 give or take. Keeping in mind you will lose huge amount of Soviets every week to attrition even if the Germans take almost no action against you....this is due to the fact that attrition losses is based on NM/EXP of units which means that until late 43/44 soviet attrition losses will stay very large even with little combat.

Just wanted to correct some things.

When manpower points migrate they are not damaged. They start production immediately. The manpower points that remain in the city are not lost, they are simply under enemy ownership. Manpower losses are miniscule during a city capture and once you retake the city they will start producing once the damage is low enough.

Moscow (all 3 hexes) produces 4.500 men a week in 1941. In 1942 that number drops to 3.600. So the math is off by quite a lot here. Soviet attrition losses are quite low when there is no combat. During the Summer and Winter when your units are getting attacked a lot, attrition kicks up. During the quiet mud turns it should be quite low.

< Message edited by xhoel -- 6/10/2019 12:53:42 AM >

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Post #: 46

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/10/2019 1:06:19 AM

joelmar

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Indeed, each and every source I ever read about that subject (and that's quite a few) all underline the difficulties in the chain of supplies the Werhmacht had during Barbarossa. And even if maybe the network was better than most persons present there at the time to witness first hand do tell, no road network can resist for long when there is a big sudden increase of heavy traffic sustained for a while on all the direct segments from railheads to the front, a problem which is even worst in bad weather. Don't remember where I read that, but someone said the weather in Russia was like going from "disaster to catastrophe" or something like that.

That said, I do recognize the courage you have to come here and try to explain to people that have been playing/developing it for years that the game is badly unbalanced and how it should work! And even though I have been playing and studying the game extensively for a few month, as a "newbie" I certainly don't have that courage, nor do I share your views. Maybe you should play the game and get to know the mechanics and synergies before deciding that it's broken and try to fix it.

And maybe it's just not for you. No problems with that, there are a lot of other games to play out there!

< Message edited by joelmar -- 6/10/2019 3:22:59 AM >

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Post #: 47

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/10/2019 2:29:33 AM

demyansk

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Good posts on the logistics. It's not an easy thing, just look on what hurricanes can do to us.

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Post #: 48

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/10/2019 3:04:18 AM

Michael T

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A *complete* understanding of the Logistics rules along with their numerous foibles and how to optimize them is paramount to high level German play. Everything else rides on the back of this knowledge. It can only be gained through many hours of study, experimentation, testing and play experience. It's no small task. It's the reason why only a very few reach the highest levels of German play.

And the very best Soviet players also have this knowledge. IMO the Logistics rules are the most import things in the game to get down pat. Mastery of this game, for either side depends on knowing the Logistics rules and everything that influences them inside out.

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Post #: 49

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/10/2019 6:47:04 AM

helpmenow

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Ah yes, the foibles, and, and remaining unspoken, the foible "tool kit".

Cheerio laddies...

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Post #: 50

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/10/2019 1:26:15 PM

joelmar

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quote:

A *complete* understanding of the Logistics rules along with their numerous foibles and how to optimize them is paramount to high level German play.

Agreed. Historically, the Germans got only 1 objective of the 3 they had set themselves at the beginning, and that is even with all those masses of Soviets the captured in their pockets. One of the big reason for that was that they switched their focus a few times during the campaign trying to grab everything at once instead of going for the throat with ruthless determination. Probably the same an inexperienced Axis player will do in this game, I certainly did in my first MP game because I was hesitating too much.

But also it can be said that the only reason the Germans could manage all those big pockets to begin with, was because the Soviets tried to defend on the periphery instead of doing them a "Kutusov". That doesn't happen in WitE against a good Soviet player who will retreat before the Axis has a chance to pincer him 1812 style, as it would not have happened in 1941 if Stalin had given authorisation to his commanders to retreat instead of "fight where you are at all cost and to the last man" order.

So pocket occasions against a strong Soviet will be very rare after the first turn, which is only natural if the Soviet plays with sound strategic concepts, exactly as it would have been in real life in the "if" situation, and that means the Axis player even with all those mighty and seemingly invicible units must walk a thin line and maximise everything if he hopes to win. I do understand it can be frustrating for someone who is only in the game to win by pushing units around without giving too much thought about what's under the hood and what happens 52 turns later. But sadly for those, that's not the nature of this game...

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I would destroy ANY Soviet player if playing Axis with such modified supply rules. It would be all too easy.

My own questionning about this Soviet strategy in historical terms is: what would have happened to the regime if some fast retreat had occured, or Moscow and/or Leningrad had been lost in 1941? Would it have created civil unrest like the big defeats Russia suffered in 1917 and maybe some regime change? Or a crumbling/decay of the armed forces because of low morale? So for me what MIGHT be missing is some bad political consequences for the Soviet player if he gives away ground too easily too fast and/or looses more than one of the 3 Axis objective before some set date in 1941. Something like a drop in national morale or loosing a few units or % of manpower production as a consequence or whatever.

< Message edited by joelmar -- 6/10/2019 1:28:13 PM >

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Post #: 51

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/10/2019 6:14:22 PM

joelmar

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"The army(4th) is almost entirely dependent on the railways. At the moment, the latter meet current consumption only. The army lives from hand to mouth"

-Field Marshall Hans Gunther Von Kluge, mid-september 1941, when 4th army had already been idle around Smolensk waiting for supply lines to catch up for an entire month.

But hey, that Von Kluge is most probably some random guy who had no idea what was going on ;-)

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Post #: 52

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/13/2019 10:05:47 AM

chuckfourth

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Hi John,
Are you telling me the Russians didn't have petrol stations? The petrol stations were ALREADY there. Russian truck range, German truck range, close enough, so the stations would also be where they needed to be. In 1941 did a Russian driving from Moscow to Smolensk have to carry all the petrol he needed with him? Its a matter of common sense not map reading. In 1935 the Russians produced about 110,000 tractors, in 1937 Soviets produced 44,000 combine harvesters to America's 29,000 they all used fuel. 1941 Russia is heavily industrialised. It had roads, Glantz says there is 64.375 klms of asphalted roads in European Russia where do your maps put these?

The quote is interesting but who is saying that? what are references 29 and 30? Otherwise this is very vague stuff, Losses of 25 percent by day 19, sounds scary but what about repairs and replacements by day 19? maybe 100%?
Partisans were not a problem in the beginning of the campaign nor was the weather, this is irrelevant.

Obviously the bitumen roads suffered heavily as the front line moved over them because they were carrying tanks, Russian and German. This would be fixed by the road crews and easily maintained once the normal wheeled type traffic returned. Tanks travel on trailers.

Look we all know logistics were problematic in Russia, the question is HOW problematic.
I say at the beginning not too bad, you say shocking, because right from day one you say Kraftwagenkolonnen cannot operate effectively any more than 10 hexes from a rail head, that's just 28 miles. I think that as they can cover 125 miles a day, then they can operate effectively 44 hexes from a rail head because that is how far they can travel, round trip, in a week. So I ask you how have you come up with penalising them at 10 hexes? . Surely they deserve 44 hexes in week one at the very least, the roads were good and petrol plentiful.

The quote I want to see is the one that says the entire German front ran out of Fuel and Supply in week 3 of operation Barbarossa, so they had a rest for a week. Because that is what the game mechanic is. A quote about some supply shortage somewhere on the front does not mean the entire front runs out of supplies as happens in the game. Well before mud and partisans.

How about a game option "Allow German full HQ supply from railhead of 40 hexes" That will give a game that is fun to play. didn't Stalin say it himself? "You should try fighting, its not so bad once you begin"

xhoel et al please don't think I am unfamiliar with the game I've played it enough to see the German supply regime is severely(unhistorically) nerfed by the unpenalised Kraftwagenkolonnen range of 10 instead of 44.

Also you talk about a big sudden increase of heavy traffic, there may well have been LESS traffic on the roads, The normal domestic traffic would have dropped of completely considering there was a war on. It is possible domestic traffic was heavier than what the Germans put on it anyway.

Sorry for repeated some info here but judging by the responses most posters haven't bothered to read what I said already.

Joel I am not saying no supply restrictions, just change the Kraftwagenkolonnen range from 10 to 44. Your Kluge quote can still happen with the Kraftwagenkolonnen set to 44.

Please notice that with all these game experts, weighty references and irrelevant quotes NO-ONE has explained why the unpenalised Kraftwagenkolonnen range is 10. I am guessing 10 is just guess work, and of course it suits the players that don't actually want to face the Germans.

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Post #: 53

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/13/2019 12:39:58 PM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

xhoel et al please don't think I am unfamiliar with the game I've played it enough to see the German supply regime is severely(unhistorically) nerfed by the unpenalised Kraftwagenkolonnen range of 10 instead of 44.

My answer was in reference to the manpower only and it was a response to what chaos45 wrote. I didn't say any of the things you mentioned. I disagree with you but won't try to change your mind, since it seems that you are set on believing what you want to believe and it would be a waste of time for both of us.

I am an Axis player and have no problem with the supply system in the state it is now. Therefore I am not interested in participating in a discussion titled "How to fix the game" since I think the game is perfectly fine in this state and save for minor changes is a stable solid version.

All the best to you,
Xhoel

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Post #: 54

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/13/2019 1:28:20 PM

joelmar

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Joined: 3/16/2019
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lol... sorry, I shouldn't be answering this because I don't think it serves any purpose. But I do believe you are a funny guy.

Anyway... with 44 hexes full supplies, it would mean that the panzers would be on full supply from turn 1 in Smolensk. FULL supply. Tell me, how does that equate with the Von Kluge quote that was made in mid-september after 4th army had been idle for a month waiting for the supplies to catch up, so a full 3 months after the invasion began? And I could also find quotes from Hoth, Halder, Guderian and many others complaining about the bad roads and the huge supply problems they had in august.

Anyway, from what you imply, those Werhmacht top brass really had no clue because if they really had so much easy supplies with such a powerful army, it only proves how very incompetent they really were! And also uncovers a big conspiracy of lies, probably only to protect their reputations... lol!

But if you do think you would like it, there is indeed a setting in options to increase logistics, you can increase it x4 and you will then have the kind of supply you want. I'll even play a game as Axis against you playing Soviet like that if you wish, I should be at the gates of Moscow after turn 6 or 7 and most of the Red Army destroyed by turn 12 if you try defending forward. Fully historic ;-) And I'm not bragging, it would be the case for any competent Axis player.

Should be funny, but I doubt I would have so much fun though.

For the 64000 km of paved routes even if it was true, which I doubt... that wouldn't mean much in itself. The quality and broadness of the roads are also important. I mean, in the countryside around my place, there are kms and kms of paved road which are quite bad, meaning with holes and crevaces, and certainly not suited to heavy traffic. There is also the problem of the trucks. Summer in the Russian steppes means a lot of dust infiltrating the mechanic, so a lot of breakdowns by the side of the road, creating even more traffic problems. And I doubt about your argument of traffic dimininution. In reality, life goes on for the millions of people living there, and there also will be refugees by the thousands going to and fro, and also the Wehrmacht traffic will have been limited to the main roads, because of a need for going as direct as possible and also for security reasons. What creates traffic in this case is not so much the passage of the formations as such, but the back and forth to the rear of the supply columns. So the same truck will have been doing many round trips from the railheads to the front every week, often loaded to the limit or over on the very same road. That is a recipe to overload and destroy any road fast.

And gaz stations all the way to Moscow... yeah! And they do fill up their tanks magically! Probably that the Soviet Gaz supplier continued to fill them up even under the German occupation!

The other thing is the fact that most German formations were not supplied by truck, because there was a chronic lack of those... but by panje lorries most often than not confiscated from peasants. So you have columns and columns of those very slow things clogging the roads and entire formations at the end of their leashes very fast.

And that is not taking into account the countless pictures we see of formations driving through gravel and dirt roads in clouds of dust telling another story than the one you imply.

Seriously, you simply have no idea how to handle the Axis army if you really think you need such supply to make headway have a chance to win. No pun intended, it's only an assessment of a reality. As I said earlier, there are games out there that are much easier to handle if easy play is what you're looking for.

< Message edited by joelmar -- 6/13/2019 1:41:06 PM >

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Post #: 55

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/13/2019 1:36:01 PM

joelmar

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@Xhoel +1... I should have used the same wisdom of course :-)

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Post #: 56

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/13/2019 8:14:02 PM

RedLancer

Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
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Let�s start here�

quote:

10 hexes from a rail head, that's just 28 miles

Which map are you playing on ???? The WitE map has 10 mile hexes. By my maths 10 x 10 = 100 miles.

As for assertion the roads were good and fuel plentiful�.

ROADS

I'm not surprised that you cannot provide a map that shows the roads that you claim exist because they didn't. I�ve spent weeks researching and putting all the roads into WitE2. I don�t disagree with your figure from Glantz but most good quality roads are in urban areas as that is where traffic is greatest. A town occupying a single square mile laid out on a grid set up on a 176 yard spacing would have 22 miles of road in that single square mile. The area of a hex in WitE is roughly 65 square miles. Using that logic, a single full urban hex would have about 2,000 km of roads. That is almost a thirtieth of the figure you quote. Even if urban doesn�t fill the whole hex you can see the numbers soon add up. Smolensk to Moscow is 400km. By comparison the UK had 283,000km of roads in 1920 and is so much smaller than Russia.

FUEL

Petrol was not plentiful as you claim. My research is that historical Petrol Stations had no more than a 1000 gallon max capacity � you didn�t need more as the trucks delivering weren�t bigger. A 1941 Panzer Regt consumed 30,000 gallons a day. Just as we see with modern military operations and fuel delivery strikes the capacity of the system is of little importance compared to throughput which is governed by truck capacity (numbers, size and distance). Cut throughput and fuel runs out very quickly.

Please go and read van Creveld it really is worth the effort.

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Post #: 57

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/14/2019 2:55:15 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
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Thanks for that RL, I was curious about asphalt roads. I checked out my previous city and it has 20,000 km of roads.

Can someone tell me the reference from where this Glantz statement is from?

When I was in the USSR in April 1985 roads and transport were primitive. Stations had no platforms, you just jumped out of the train into the mud. We were taken to see a 'typical' village, and the most I can remember about it is the mud. Leningrad had one good section of asphalt, about 500m, so good I asked why? Repaired every year for the May Day parade.

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Post #: 58

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/14/2019 12:09:33 PM

joelmar

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56ajax: +1

As for Glantz, the man is a of course a good historian, but I do believe some of his disciples often go a bit too far. Sometimes they sound like he is Jesus Christ reborn! Glantz said it so it is the pinnacle of truth!!!... problem is the same with what Jesus Christ said... often distorted and pushed to extremes ;-)

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Post #: 59

RE: How to fix the game. - 6/18/2019 7:55:37 AM

chuckfourth

Posts: 222
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Thank you for the advice John Ill try to get a copy of van credlin. In the mean time I would like to point you to this article from Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork a Branch Chief in the Transportation Division of the German Army General Staff. i.e. he is a primary source.
https://www.allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html
This is his summary of the ability of the road network to support army group north.

"As a result of this planning and the measures taken the Germans succeeded in maintaining that part of the road net which was vital for their operations and in improving it sufficiently to meet all demands."

Meet all Demands, sounds to me like army group norths tanks should not be out of supply on turn 3?
There is also this,

"In 1941 European Russia did not have a highway net comparable to those in western European countries. The few roads which existed had only a limited capacity and apparently had not undergone any appreciable change in construction or lay-out during the past 100 year3, a condition due primarily to the relatively small demands of peacetime traffic. There were two types of roads:
a. the long, straight thoroughfares intended for commercial and military traffic, which usually followed the valleys of the larger rivers and connected cultural and industrial areas;
b. the unimproved roads which had developed through constant use of the same route connecting small settlements with nearby fields and forests,
In contrast to the former Baltic States, where paved roads were common, the roads in European Russia had paved or asphalt surfacing only in and near large cities and industrial centers"

So OK kudos to you. You are right about the paved roads but I would suggest the bitumen wasn't laid out in grids only straight line from factory to factory etc. so transport would improve the closer to a city you are. The other point I would make is this, I think you are assuming all roads to be 'type b' I think that within the first 3 weeks 'type a' roads would remain usable, after all they are specifically designed to carry "military traffic" and would run between all the major cities ie where you want them.
The quote also says that paved roads were "common" in the Baltic states so make of that what you will but that might go some way to explain the lack of supply shortages felt by army group north.
There is also a all weather paved highway between Minsk and Moscow.
The article also says this,

"Over limited distances (200 to 300 miles), however, truck transportation could temporarily assume the railroad's supply function."

I read this to mean that the supply ability of the Railhead is extended 20 to 30 hexes without penalty. So OK that isn't 40 hexes but its at a minimum twice what the game has at 10 hexes.

This reference also provides the dates the first German trains arrived in these cities. ie this is how far the rails had been repaired.

" 27 June - Kaunas (military railroad station)
28 June - Bajohren
6 July - Dvinsk (west bank of the Dvina)
9 July - Riga
10 July - Rezekne (shuttle traffic from Dvinsk and Riga)
11 July - Ostrov
13 July - Cherskaya (between Ostrov and Pskov)
17 July - Sebezh
24 July - Pskov"

Just looking at the first week Army group north had fixed 10 Railway hexes!!!!!!!!! In the game they can only fix 4, the Games army group north rail repair rate for the first week is not even half what was achieved historically. Bajohren is at about Priekules location.
Dvinsk is your Daugavpils they reached this in the next week that means they fixed a further 16 rail hexes in a second week!!!!!!!!!!!
In week 3 they had got to Riga, Rezekne, Ostrov and Cherskaya thats 35 Rail hexes fixed in total by week three. You allow just 12, so your Rail repair rate is at best, one third the historical amount. Army group north should be given 3 FBD that can piggyback.

Though trains were travelling along these lines, full capacity had to wait until the bridges had been brought back into full serviceability. Here's the bridge repair dates.

"Location of railroad bridges Date restored (fully)
Kaunas 17 July 1941
Taurage 29 June 1941
Riga 12 July 1941
Jelgava 22 July 1941
near Jekabpils 23 July 1941
near Rezekne 15 July 1941
near Cesis 24 July 1941
neer Pskov 27 July 1941
near Petseri 24 July 1941" (Games Pechory)

So OK this slows things down a bit but overall by the 5th week these bridges are all fully fixed and the rail is repaired at least as far as Sebezh towards Smolensk, up to Pskov and past Riga to Cesis Its all completely fixed and that is 69 rail hexes repaired, historically by week 5. If you add in the line between Riga and Rezekne that's another 13 rail hexes they fixed by week 5, 82 Rail hexes!!!!!! that's a conservative estimate, they worked on the trunk lines as well. Your game allows them just 20 by week 5 so your game gives them one quarter the rail repair capacity they actually had.

It would not surprise me if Army group Centre and South had similar rail repair abilities.

This also needs to be considered,

"Shipping on the Niemen River as far up as Kaunas relieved the burden on the railroads by some 18,000 tons between 28 June (three days after the Germans occupied the area) and 19 July."

Here is another quote from this article
"Rail traffic was not disrupted at any time in the area of Army Group South since there were no partisans there." this is because the ethic minorities in these areas had been handsomely monstered by the "Russians" forever.
I think maybe your game has partisan activity in Army group souths area, perhaps that should be rethought?

Quotes about supply shortages in September or August are irrelevant to what happens in June July, even a quote about supply shortage in June would be irrelevant because Stalin resisted, that uses up much more German supply than if he withdrew, as the game does. We are comparing apples and oranges here.

Why wasn't Stalin as smart as some of the other posters here and withdraw all his troops deep into Russia and start fighting then?
Because an army fighting forward uses a lot more supply than an Army moving forward unopposed. Much much much less. Ammunition is heavy and they don't need to fire a single shot, They don't have to do a single fuel sapping manoeuvre off road, they get a good nights sleep. They arrive fresh on the heals of the enemy ready to go. That is why references about supply shortages from September or August are irrelevant it is a different situation, at that time there is constant heavy fighting, the weather is steadily worsening and manoeuvring about in difficult terrain mandatory.

In the game even though the Russian withdraws and the German is just following up, the Germans supply is so unrealistically restricted its the same as though he had had to fight all the way forward against an opponent 4 times as strong.
Please note that according to Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork army group north did not suffer supply shortages even though they DID have to fight forward. The Germans should operate under the historic supply constraints, rail repair rate 4x current, road supply penalised after 30 hexes not 10. I choose 30 rather than 20 because it is the good season 20 would be used in mud times.
I am not asking for dropping all supply constraints just matching them to the first hand, specific, authentic information contained in the reference supplied.

Stalin knew if he withdrew he would have the Germans right there in his face as soon as he stopped, fresh and ready to go and a lot closer to Moscow. Because all they had to do was drive along the roads.

28 miles is my mistake I was working on 10 klm hexes and a round trip ie range halved I see now they are 10 Mile hexes.

JoelMar please take the time to read what I said and digest it before you reply or maybe just be wise, I'm finding your jeering tiresome. I already tried the logistic thing and posted the result but here it is again for your benefit. In week three after moving the max amount an armoured unit will have supply of about 4 with Logistics level at 400 it becomes about 10, not a difference to bother with.

I am sorry John I don't understand this
" Just as we see with modern military operations and fuel delivery strikes the capacity of the system is of little importance compared to throughput which is governed by truck capacity (numbers, size and distance). Cut throughput and fuel runs out very quickly. "
can you rephrase it please.
As for petrol station capacity don't forget the Germans created their own stations at the appropriate junctures.

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Post #: 60