chuckfourth
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Joined: 10/26/2011
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OK, very good, so in WitE2 army group north will be able to achieve the historical rail repair rate of 16 hexes per turn? (82 hexes repaired by end week 5) on average?
You say that WitE1 has rules to factor this in but not really, you can only fix 6 hexes per turn, well short of the historical achievement of 16.
Sure Logistics was a nightmare but not for Army group North and not at the start of the campaign, after all don't forget Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork a Branch Chief in the Transportation Division says Group North's road network was good enough to "meet all demands"
Correct that reference doesn't say how long the trucks can replace the rail head but other references agree that the distance they could do that was about 200-300 miles. So, how long could they fully supply the army 300 miles from the railhead? Clearly at least a week. The Germans never had better supply than in week one. So the Game should START with the unpenalised supply range from a rail head of 30 hexes. Then each week lose a hex or two in range until we get down to the minimum somewhere around 20 hexes, still twice what you now have.
So throughput is the number of locomotives or trucks on a route or capacity? well not a great shortage of these early in the campaign I would think. I mean that earlier quote from van creveld seems a bit suspicious to me. They lost 25 per cent of grosstransportraum by day 19 so 50% by day 38?, all out of trucks by day 76? It just doesn't add up.
I had a dig around and actually I do have some maps of Russian roads as it turns out, in
"German Report Series Terrain factors in the Russian campaign"
Here is what their maps tell us. Roads are classified into Rollbahn,1st class, 2nd class and others. The First map from June 41 shows a Rollbaun running east west through Pruzhany to Slonim it then travels east. There is also a First class road going east to Slutzk and another to Pinsk. They mention in the text that the 255th divisions mission was to open up the "Vlodava-Maloryta-Korin highway"(70 miles) not the Vlodava-Maloryta-Korin farmtrack. The text also describes the road between Brest Litovsk and Slonim as a Rollbaun Highway of 110 miles . The second Map is from July 41 and shows a1st class road running north from Gomel to Orsha and West from Gomel in the direction of Brest Litovsk. It also shows a Rollbaun running all the way from Slutzk to Roslaval. A third map from October 41 of the Bryansk area shows a Rollbahn running west to Roslaval and east to Orel. A 1st class road runs north to Kirov. Two 1st class roads radiate out from Roslaval and a Rollbaun south west all the way to Slutzk. That is quite a lot of quite good roads. So it would appear there are usually "first class" roads running between the major centres.
OK so Rail repair rate not so good in Centre and South as in North, agreed, but see
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=51767
Have a look at the 9th post on this forum. For army group Centre, Rail to Baranovichi by 1st July that's 16 hexes hexes fixed in two weeks twice what the game allows. Minsk by 5th July that's 24 hexes by week 2 that's 5 times what the game allows.
by mid July guaranteed 14 trains a day to Minsk, that's 4 weeks for 24 hexes, the game allows less than 16 hexes in the same time. So historically they had 98 trains a week arriving in Minsk by week 4, that's 441000 tons of supply a week. In week 4 in the game your still two weeks away from even fixing the rail as far as Minsk. Smolensk by the end of July, that's 45 hexes in 6 weeks. Overall then army group Centre historically fixed 7 rail hexes per week. The game allows, considering terrain less than 4 per week. not enough!
On throughput or capacity, same reference.
"On 15 July 1941, the quartermaster general reviewed the supply status of, Army Group Center in terms of its capabilities to continue offensive operations. He made it clear that the great rail head for continuing operations lay in the cities of Minsk and Molodecno, no longer on the prewar frontier. The army group then had 45,450 tons of 60-ton truck columns and, deducting one-third as inoperable at any time and in repair, still had approximately 30,700 tons available for continuous operations.{16} In mid-July 1941 the German army transportation chief guaranteed the substantial total of fourteen trains and 6,300 tons of supplies daily for the Minsk-Molodecno base. The quartermaster general averred that, based on the logistical situation of 15 July 1941, Army Group Center could conduct an offensive on Moscow with four panzer, three motorized infantry, and ten infantry divisions with appropriate army reserves, maintaining the remainder of the army group in static fighting around Smolensk. This logistical feat was moderately impressive for the middle of July, with enough trains arriving at the Minsk-Molodecno railroad and more than enough trucks to move a panzer group and an infantry army to Moscow. Meanwhile, the Germans were fighting the battle of Smolensk and would take two more weeks to finish the job and another week to tidy up operationally. The Germans used this time to build up logistic stockpiles at the rail head in the center of White Russia and regauge the main rail line from Minsk through Orsha into Smolensk{17}."
and this
" As early as 12 July 1941, the quartermaster general of the German army noted in a telephone call to the chief of staff that Army Group Center had enough supplies to maintain an armored drive to Moscow. He also notes that the infantry had only enough to get to Smolensk. It follows that as early as 12 July, the Germans were close to having logistics under control for a push almost straight through to Moscow. See Halder. Diaries, vol. 6. p. 231. "
Even if you do adjust road and rail supply to the correct historical levels you still can't conform to the Germans historical abilities because supply is allocated randomly. What you need to do is add a supply button to each counter that does exactly what the refit button does but for supply. This allows the German player to give the panzer corps enough supply to maintain momentum which is what they did. You can then drop the punitive Supply Buildup option just allocate the supply (subject to distance qualifiers) where it is needed in the first place.
Can you please take the time to read this reference as well?
https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/the-influence-of-railways-on-military-operations-in-the-russo-german-war-19411945 he says this,
"By the conclusion of the Smolensk battle in early August, it is clear that the supply situation was under strain, and despite over a month’s pause in operations, there were insufficient supplies to carry the units forward to Moscow" later the writer comments that in winter the supply situation fell over.
So I agree with the Supply nightmare in Winter, sure and serious in the mud, but up until August supply was OK. In the game supply is rubbish right from the start, not from august. All the spearheads runs out in week 3. Fix supply and the Russian has to fight forward and you have a game that starts in week 1.
This same reference also gives plenty of pertinent information on rail throughput.
I would also suggest you use the correct national boundary for the 3 Baltic states rather than the current slightly arbitrary zig zag boundary
Please dont invoke limits of the game engine as an excuse to have ahistorical German supply. The approach the game should take is to have the known historical facts accurate in the game, if that is done and play balance suffers that tells you that something else is wrong and that is what should be adjusted not the historical facts. Nerfing this and nerfing that to get what in the end is just someone's opinion of how operation Barbarossa should play is never going to end well.
Also from
https://www.allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html
"The establishment of speedways for general automotive traffic and of special thoroughfares to be used only by tanks proved very effective in preserving motor vehicles and made possible a fairly smooth flow of traffic. There also was a definite correlation between the attrition of motor vehicles and the distance between the railheads and the combat units.
During the muddy season in the spring and fall, which usually lasted for eight weeks, a very heavy burden was placed on the railroad because most of the roads became impassable.
Whenever there was a lack of road repair crews, only a few main routes were kept open for traffic. Unimproved and poorly surfaced roads had to be closed to traffic. Wherever this measure was neglected, the roads became completely impassable, even on occasions during summer. Prior to closing these roads the Germans saw to it that a maximum amount of supplies for the duration of the muddy season was stockpiled at the front."
Partisans in Army Groups South's area nonexistent, is another interesting revelation, what are you thinking about that? perhaps this is another area you are familiar with Joelmar?
EwaldvonKleist, something is wrong in the game not the internet. If you became elite guard with posts of this quality... well no need to say any more really.
Bottom line is I am really looking forward to playing this game. But I just cant swallow the current supply situation.
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