Hanny
Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
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Oh dear, the circus is back in town and the clown is out of control with access to the internet.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Hanny
Its very simple.
It is?, a simple explanation is that your innumerate, incompetent and ignorant.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
While the vehicle pool is Full, it's the first week (or even the third) of the game, and the Russians are running away, it is very clear the Germans should get the maximum possible supply RANGE according to the capabilities of the various vehicles or convoys, they dont. far from it Ive proved this already.
Fact free. further the two things you demonstrated was your inability to count, and ignorance of what to count.
In a 24 hour period a truck can forward lift its 3 ton cargo to a range of 300 klm. ID using its internal MT for logistical resupply can therfore in a days forward march perform 60klm round trip 5 times to bring around 15 tons to its parent units to then be distributed along the 20klm frontage the parent unit is spread over. By week three the ID is 18*30= 540klm from base of supply, the internal MT therfore has to cover 1100 klm round trip, and can deliver 3 tons every 3/4 days. Or in other words its reduced to 25% of capcity by distance. Its range is a constant 300klm in 24 hours, its capacity to forward lift is what changes, where the distance from depot to end user changes. The range as you descibe it, is a constant, and is reduced by the time and distance to move to the end user.
So thats why the GTR was increased to moved supplies and creat depots closer to the fighting units who could not only follow the rail which delivered it from the reich. Game does this by use of rail conversion and is over generous to the supply as it does not allow for single line 12 daily trains capacity 24 trains double line capacity and so on. Each train had a standard tonnage of pre packed military supplies, of fuel munition etc.
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ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
You and most other posters are conflating supply range and amount. If half the truck fleet is missing the remaining trucks will deliver half as much but to the same RANGE, the same distance as the full complement of trucks would.
Fact free. Several posters ( one at least who performs logistics in the modern military, another who lectures on military logistics) have pointed out how maths works, your incapable of understanding the math or the explanation, so they give up and moved on.
As for your latest ignorant posting, its mathamaticlty incorrect, logically unsupportable and merely the musings of a inferior mind.
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ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
German MTV and Russian MTV used different grades of fuel, they were not interchangeable
I think you made that up. Show me a reference please.
Using the quote function too difficult for you?
The reason you think others make up common knowledge ww2 references (or in this instance basic combustion knowledge) is because your posting about things you have no education in, knowledge of, and inability to find in a book or the net.
SU in ww2 used 4 grades of Motor gas, plus a number of avgas grades, the lowest of which was usable as mogas by German MTV, all mogas had a far lower octane level than western European engines could run on and required additives to bring the octane level up high enough to use in engines. Germany had this ability at corps level by 42, but did have an ad hoc ability in 41 to use one type of SU Aviation gas that when mixed with German motor gas allowed motor engines to operate at a lower capacity.This of course worked both ways as SU could not interchange captured German fuel without knowing what additives to add to make it usable.
Soviet account: from "Technical Support of Armoured Forces in the Vistula-Oder Operation" is that they could not use captured enemy fuel dumps until they had been tested for octane rating, water contamination, type of fuel, etc which was done by the Army laboratory but took some time to find out if the fuel was usable.
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ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
OK so my point is this. The Russian has withdrawn so there are NO battles and NO skirmishes. So no need for ammunition resupply whatsoever.
Oh dear, you forgot to attack on turn one so there was no combat. Your point is your incompetent.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
I've already clearly shown that in the first few weeks of the campaign the game rail repair rate is easily less than half historical, FACT.
Nope bullshit is not a fact.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Correct. Good point, lets look at it.
So it all depends on how many trucks they have, so what 1 gross truppen can deliver in a day 7 gross truppen can deliver in a week did they have enough trucks for this probably in the first few weeks of the campaign, yes, especially as no ammo needed to be brought forward because dont forget this is all in the context of the Russian running away. So how much tonnage do we save if no Ammo expended?
Your link does not contain the data to answer the question. It refers to this book https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kr2Gc7btCxEC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=14+aok+april+1944&source=bl&ots=USphncPGtv&sig=ACfU3U37SQURLPvlzHJfT39PyvK5sPLPtA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN3pG87PfkAhVvThUIHeabBJwQ6AEwC3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=14%20aok%20april%201944&f=false
This book also explain how much logistical support a QM had for each formation.
It refers to 43 when Divs had 2/3rds the manpower at full strength as they all lost a Regimnet due to inability to replace losses suffered in 41 and the TOE of a Div changed. See note 22, April 3 the QM put requirements at 1500 tons a day, April 15 1350 tons a day. The military situation was that they were in heavy combat defensively, drawing local food and fodder from one of the richest agricultural regions of Italy, and were sat on a rail network with 55000 tons a day capacity.
Meanwhile back in reality on the eastern front, none of that existed in the first weeks of barbarossa.
The 1941 munition supplies reaching the Eastern front by month. Source:Germany and WWII Tome
June :23077 tons
July :101594
August:118855
September: 107870
October:90563
November:68035
Which yields per Div per day.
June 5
July 22
Aug 26
Sept 23
Oct 20
Nov 15
The answer to your question, how much tonnage is saved in no munitions expended on Eastern front, is to be found in the QM reports for 41 from the eastern front, not from Italy in 1943. For the first month its 5 tons a day.
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ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
So if you are advancing without opposition, your supply requirement drops by about a third because NO ammunition is expended.
Not what your link data supports, you simply made that up. In 43 in Italy they were holding/defending in a pre prepared defensive position, supplied by a local rail net of extreme capacity and able to draw on local food fodder. In Western Poland, in 41, none of that was present, they were marching 30klm a day and had no time to live of the land as its all consumed in marching.
We have the munition expenditure per div in 41 for EF, and its so far from your made up number as to leave readers to conclude your incompetent, numerate, ignorant. Or simply being dishonest.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
So lets look at some ball park figures,
Ok so how much does a German division need? look at post 65 here.
What was wrong with the QM report from 43 Italy?, it had 1500 tons for 7 formation, each if at full strength are 67% of a 1. Welle 41 EF formation. In other words, 280 tons for a full strength 41 and 210 for a full strength 43 (ignores this is using an actual QM request based on actual strength not a theoretical full strength 41 and 43 ID). The link you used guesses 200 at the lowest, and could increase to 400 if unable to live of the land. Why link to SU 44 ID requiring 275 tons with half the manpower of German 41 Division and not expect readers to understand your being dishonest.
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ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
A days marching... averaged 300km, but at times individual performances achieved almost twice as much.
So that's 186 miles so 18 hexes a day, NOT 10. With the possibility of 36 hexes under duress, IN A DAY. So if there is a desperate need to get the supplies forward it can be done.
Now look at post number 12 where it is revealed GTR has a lift capacity of about 67055 tons at the beginning of barbarossa,
Fact free, humans marching speed has never allowed 300 klm a day, for the good and sufficient reason that its physical impossible to perform. Your maths is based on a fantasy, rubbish in, rubbish out.
Post 12 is correct. It does not contain that a third of that tonnage, is expected to be in maintenance at any point in time. Your other link contains that that but you ignore its meaning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Lets do some simple math,
150 infantry divisions marching forward, each needs a minimum of 110 tons because no Russian opposition like in the game.
You pulled 150 ID out of your arse, Let alone that third of the mnapower on the EF was not even ina di sized unit but still had to be logisticly supplied by the GTR, there were no 150 ID at start of Barbarrosa. You invented 110 tons, when linking to data that provides 400 tons requirements for marching 3 mph for 10 hours a day. You also linked to 280 tons requirement for static defence.
The GTR was raised from 19,000 used in 1940 France to 60,000 tonnes capacity for the EF operation, while the demand for 102 infantry and 33 motorized divisions was 32,000 tonnes a day, which would indicate that the lorries could support the army up to 300 km from the depots. The 24 trains a day for each Heeresgruppe represented 32,000 tonnes of supplies, which confirms these figures; however, this represented only fuel, ammunition, and limited food/fodder, making no allowance for replacement men, horses, or equipment. Later in the war, a Heeresgruppe would require 75 trains a day simply for ‘normal’ operations, while heavy fighting could raise this to over 100 trains.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
67055/150 well they have 440 tons each to play with, so easy enough to account for some extra rations for the Armoured divisions, and they can deliver it out to 18 hexes maybe even 36 because it is week three, the roads are still in good nick and if they arn't there are BATTALIONS of construction troops the sole purpose of which is to fix the roads.
Roads in good nick?, its the roads that destroyed the engines, filters clogged with fine soil and there was not enough engine oil to clean them out, so trucks and AFV fell out of use ata staggering level. In 1941/2 for the Eastern front there were 6 Eisenbahntruppe Regimnets of 2 Bttns Regiments, plus a total of 65500 in 41 rising to 89151 in 42 of labouers from Todt to do the manual work. 65500 workers for all road/bridge construction repair in 41.
Week 3 ID marching at 30 klicks a day puts them, 540 klm in country, with a days rest a week. Rail conversion has moved at 20 klicks a day and is now 360 klicks in country.
150*110 ( made up number used to show you your innumerate) is a daily requirement of 16500 tons.
By day 21 the ID are 180 klicks beyond the rail conversion. In game it therefore allows supply from the converted rail head.
Truck at 10 hours at 30klm an hour is 300 klm forward lift in 24 hours. GTR in 24 hours from rail head to supply dumps for ID to draw from, by day 21 the entire 45000 tonnage of the GTR delivers its cargo, to be drawn on by the ID. Clearly supply exceeds demand. However if we use the 400 from the link, we find it does not.
In reality the rail head is still back in Poland, and the GTR is operating from there in a daisy chain forward, and supply cannot equal demand. game does not model this.
But wait, the GTR is not just for the Heer, its for everything in the east, the LW alone requires over half of the GTR to provide its logistical requirements, so no matter what math is used, there is not the capacity to lift the logistics forward by GTR.
Pzr coprs Qm supply situation:
21 july 41 LIII Corps, QM report "The munition consignment for this Division is for a war of rapid manoeuvrer, the necessary munitions for position warfare are lacking"
22 July QM XXIV Corps report, "Supply levels critical"
24 July QM XXXXIV Report, "Supply levels critical"
24 July QM XXXXVI Report, "Supply levels critical"
24 July QM XXXXVII Report, "Supply levels tight"
24 July Guderian reports munition supply are coming from 440klm away by truck. ( which means resupply of 16 combat loads to planned expenditure of 32)
28 July AGC report " A collapse of the soviets for the time being is not to be expected. Because they are so tough their tactical methods cannot be predicted. The human resources of the country are said to be an infinite resource that cannot be reduced. Accordingly more emphasis should be placed on the seizure of industrial centres which are said to be arming the masses"
28 July Pzr group QM complains that only 45 replacement tank engines per month are aviable for the entire eastern front. Guderian corps had started with 953 AFV and was reduced to 286 AFV on 29th July. Of these, 135 were Pzr III, 38 PzrIV the rest PzrI and PzrII.
Any hope of a renewed offensive would have to depend on an improvement in the railways for which Wagner's promises never matched reality. In August Army Group Centre needed at least 24 trains a day just to cover day-to-day consumption; in the first half of the month barely half that number arrived. Thereafter Wagner promised an increase to first 30 and then 35 trains a day to establish adequate magazines for the next stage of the advance, but in practice only about 18 trains a day came through. -barbarossa and Germany Defeat in the East, Pg 406.
AGC started with c6666 Grosstruppen trucks, 45 ID each with a 30 ton MT lift is 10 trucks each (6666+450=6711) means 6711 trucks on the road net, road net to east of smolensk from Minsk base of supply, is 275 mile.
6711 trucks * 60 yards is 402660
275 miles is 484000 yards
Road capacity is 85% taken up by supply trucks, moving up to east of Smolensk are 15 ID, each ID requires 24 miles of road net, (15*24=360 miles= 633600 yards)
Not enough road net for both.
The logistics branch of the OKH was blunt in its prediction for another advance from smolensk to moscow: ( supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock) 'if the intensity of fighting and the operational rythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Now don't forget that 110 figure includes everything. But of course every time they capture a town or city its FULL of petrol, diesel, water, food and fodder all of wich no longer needs to come from the railhead.
If they have to fight forward we get a figure of 200 tons/division a day. Still easily done out of 440 available a day.
Fact free.
Halder tells us for AGC in July 13000 tons of supply required daily, but only 6500 arrived at the rail heads, of that 5000 or so makes it to the Divisions requiring it each day.
Ewald von Kleist
Russia also lacked railways, we were unable to bring up supplies to our advancing troops.
Blumentritt
On the Moscow route, the principal line of advance, they repeatedly held on long enough to be encircled, The badness of the roads became our worst handicap, Faulty intel1igence had underestimated Soviet strength, The restoration of railway traffic became delayed by the change of gauge beyond the
Russian frontier. The supply problem in the Russian campaign became a very serious problem, complicated by local conditions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Ok here's something else wrong in the game supply setup, look at the same site, last post, post 21. The number of trucks in the army inventory during barbarossa went UP over the campaign not down like in the game.
By 1943 the tonnage GTR carried had got to 80000 tons, see post 3.
67k was the GTR authorised on EF for 41, 80k was for 43 for the entire Heer. Rarely did it ever have its authorised strength. Wagner gaqve the in service numbers to Halder, who gives them to us and is why the numbers in game reflect the historical records of how many trucks the Germans had.
Tonnage went up, munitions consumed went up, German Munitions production by year.
1940 865000
1941 540000
1942 1270000
1943 2258000
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
A German division contains its own 30 ton transport column and a 25 cubic mtr POL column so there is another 125 miles a day for 30t of supply from the divisions end. So, if a static German infantry Division can live on 30 tons a day it should be fully supplied at 36 or maybe 72 hexes from the rail head. Given good roads and weather. Also if it is fighting using 200 tonnes a day then that still gives a range of 200/30 = 7 so range becomes 125/7 = 18 so whatever the GTR range is we need to add the Division own supply range of minimum 2 hexes.
ID has internal 30t MT to bring supplies from depots to formations requiring it. ID marches 30klm forward, its internal MT in that day travails to depot and back, min of 60 klm if the ID starts at a depot, however you have posted its 180 klm from a converted rail line, by week 3, so its 180 klm from a depot, making it a 390 klm round trip, taking 10 hours for a single round trip Which is a 30 ton a day delivery of logistical support for the 150 ID in your example.
If otoh its day 1 the MT can do a round trip of 60klm from depot to ID who has marched 30 klicks forward, and repeat the process 5 times giving 150 tons per ID before using up its 300klm daily forward lift capacity. Clearly on day 1 an ID can supply the 110 from a depot the ID is on, but not otherwise, as the ID moves from the depot, by 21 it can only supply 30 tons. As an ID requires vastly more than 110, the scale of the problem increases.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
MattFL calling me a Lying Bitch says a lot more about you than it does about me. If you are that frightened of fighting the Germans just play a different game.
Er he called you out for being dishonest. Thats you willing to be dishonest, says enough about you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Ok so I have the played version1.12.00, 191-45 Campaign, Logistics set to 400 transport set to 400. At the start of turn three Army Group North's two Panzer Corps are up near Tallin, Army Group Centres five panzer Corps are at the gates of Vitebsk and their movement factors are all in the low teens i.e. they are out of supply. So in two turns the game has turned the Blitzkrieg into the Sitzkrieg. 7 panzer corps are going to sit around for a WEEK after just two weeks of moving forward with little if any fighting. Here's an excerpt from my previous post 64 in this same thread.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=51767
Have a look at the 9th post on this forum. For army group Centre, Rail to Baranovichi by 1st July that's 16 hexes hexes fixed in two weeks twice what the game allows. Minsk by 5th July that's 24 hexes by week 2 that's 5 times what the game allows. by mid July guaranteed 14 trains a day to Minsk, that's 4 weeks for 24 hexes, the game allows less than 16 hexes in the same time. So historically they had 98 trains a week arriving in Minsk by week 4, that's 441000 tons of supply a week. In week 4 in the game your still two weeks away from even fixing the rail as far as Minsk. Smolensk by the end of July, that's 45 hexes in 6 weeks. Overall then army group Centre historically fixed 7 rail hexes per week. The game allows, considering terrain less than 4 per week.
None of the hacks in this forum have disputed the truth of this comments.
Because readers are embarrassed for you, you link to data that does not say what you say it says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
No panzer corps waited around for a week for supplies in week three of barbarossa, after the mud sure.
Day 4 AG Pzr Group was holding a river line at Dvina well ahead of the advancing Inf Armys, it was criticaly short of munitions, so sent all its internal MT under heavy guard back to gain supplies, and was almost annihilated by a soviet counter attack, the Pzr group lost all its trucks, 2 Inf armies had all their MT confiscated to replace it reducing their advance to regain the logistical ability of the Pzr corps. 2 inf armies and a Pzr corps mobilised in week 1.
You really ought not to be allowed to use the net.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
OK instead of spouting truisms how about some facts?
You tell us WHEN G4 predicted the German spearheads would run out of supplies, was it in week 3?
He well known posted facts, you are ignorant of them, and what they mean, which is funny as you have linked to those facts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Your underlying assumption that German supply should be based on fighting forward doesn't hold at the start of the game because the Russian CAN safely withdraw, exactly because the railhead range restrictions stop the Germans on turn 3. The Russian doesn't have to fight, the Railhead supply rules do the fighting for him.
As for 25-35 tank TOE numbers by week 3 this is not a valid comparison, that number is after the Germans FOUGHT forward for 3 weeks The game situation if the Russian withdrawals is that these 7 panzer corps have done no fighting and so have a TOE around 90% You can only use the Historical values you sight if both sides actually follow the historical script. If the Russians withdraw instead of fight ALL those historical constraints you mention go out the window, and the Russian always withdraws because the railhead range restrictions do the fighting for him, no matter what, the German will always arrive exhausted at the start of turn 3. In reality If the Russians had withdrawn then the German would have been hot on their heels with plenty of supply.
Not an assumption, its from the QM/Halder reports of how many trucks the GTR had lost due to mechanical and combat, the number lost in combat is under 1% of all GTR lost to all causes. The gam,e uses historical numbers to represent logistical reality.
Another of your many problems is your not familiar with reality and prefer to make up any old crap you like. This game is not for you, as the innumerate, incompetent and ignorant are not the target audience.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Three Army group Centre and North panzer corps out of supply on turn 3 well before they get to Smolensk or Leningrad. that's out of supply in the first month of barbarossa, preposterous my friend.
Except thats is what the QM reports of those formations show to have been the reality. Just as the pre war planning predicted XXIVPanzerCorps reported ‘Every panzer is only provisionally fit for service. As a result of oil shortages no oil changes can be undertaken. If the panzers are committed to a large-scale operation in their current condition then the total loss of most must be expected"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
You say Centre runs out of supplies past Smolensk well I'm talking about turn 3 that's BEFORE you get to Smolensk not past. Pay attention please.
Nothing wrong with his post, problems all with you and your ignorance.
halder diary, page 203 6th July AGC requires 21 trains a day. Page 242 Wagner gaurentes 14 @6300 tons. Page 246 what that translates into combat loads."To meet all supply requirements we have available: As of 18 July, 14 trains; 22 trains are necessary to catch up with the three Armies into the areas newly occupied".
Ie between 6th and 18th July 14*12=168 promised, 146 delivered.
So 6th AGC requires 21*12 days.
QM promises 14 a day, 14*12=168
QM delivers 146/12= 12 a day, =146.
32,000/24 =1333
AGC 21*12 =252*1333=335916 tons.
QM promises 168*1333=223944 tons
QM delivers=146*1333= 194618 tons.
AGC requires 335916
QM delivers 194618
58% of requirement met.
Pre war logistical planning ( Marcks and Paulus road/rail/logistical study) showed that after 20 days logistical effort, to support an operational bound of 300 miles in which Russian forced were to be destroyed and the war won) supplies would drop to 10-20% of requirements and an operational pause would result, so as to build up supplies for any further offensives.
Dont consider this a debate, your clearly a moron, and im just highlighting the worst of your errors as i had an hour to kill.
< Message edited by Hanny -- 9/30/2019 3:56:54 PM >
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