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RE: How to fix the game. - 12/10/2019 7:24:33 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: uw06670

Hanny,

Question about lend lease vehicles. British and American tanks rolled in to help the Sovs eventually and 100's of Thousands of trucks. So how did they provide fuel for them? Or did the US companies do something to adjust the engine fuel requirements for these? (I think the Shermans sent to USSR were diesel now that I dig my memory).

thanks,


Depends how much detail your looking for, LL came in protocols and in 41 LL MTV was minimal, 42/3 moderate and 44+ a flood.

LL Chemicals to use as additives to increase octane levels arrived in different quantities over the protocols, and afaict no one knows exactly when they were used, only that they were. like say TB vaccinations from LL chemicals that were delivered during the war to replace SU plant that switched to war time production from vaccines, pre war 440 per 100k population had TB and dropped as uptake of vaccination levels went up, only to stop in 41/42 and increase again as LL TB jabs became available later in the war. We know LL TB jabs helped TB numbers in SU population to be held at moderate levels, never getting close to pre war levels during the war, so like LL MOGAS we know the big picture but its largely best guess for specifics. Just like what the SU did with the additives that could be used to increase octane rating.

US MTV was 80 (+-10) octane while SU Zis trucks 55-60 octane. 4 complete refineries were sent under LL, and more under license, 6 in 44 for instance, however they were principally for AVGAS production ( could do MOGAS or AVGAS but a downtime of several months to switch, German had the same problem and rarely switched while SU just waited for another refinary to come on line and prodoce what the demand then called for), as LL sourced AVGAS up to 150 Octane came in around 30-40% of all high octane production in SU in the war, while MOGAS was under 4%. SO LL AVGAS was critical to SU aviation performance, while LL Mogas was not.

Lancasters refuelling in SU had to wait for a specific fuel to be produced and delivered to fly home with after landing there after bombing Tirpitz, Hurricanes covering LL shipments and based in SU ran on standard UK octane rated fuel and this was produced in country for them.

"Soviet fighter pilots found the British Hurricane to be outdated and cumbersome. Furthermore, the standard Soviet aviation fuel in 1941-42 was the B-70 formulation, with an octane rating between only 70 and 75. Since the Hurricane's Rolls-Royce Merlin engine was designed for a considerably higher octane rating the Soviet fuel wore them down rapidly, decreasing performance and frequently causing flight accidents." Source: Black Cross/Red Star Vol II.

US P-39 Aircobras had to have LL AVGAS over 100 for combat roles, as in testing they fell out of the sky in turning when using standard 4B-78. ( no boost when you need it) OTOH training flights in Aircobras was performed using 4B-78.

Matildas ( sadly equipped for the desert and end up as LL in Russian winter with wrong filters, no anti freeze etc) and 3 months logistics for them ( munition POL), arrive in Murmansk on the 11th Oct 41 coming as UK LL, moved by rail to kazan and inspected on the 14th by 15th they in service/training for the 15 day training period for the crews, and maintenance crew in Moscow Kazan Tank school. By end of winter in commission rates were under 50%, how much of that was teething issues with learning a new system or making do with wrong stuff i dont know, but its an example of how LL was a whole package deal. In 44 stalin held up major offensives to allow LL AVGAS to arrive at the front and be used.


Everything has octane rating for best use,( dont forget Fords involvement in SU engine production) and design generally its quite narrow range and its best to keep to that, otoh once you know your T34 or LL Sherman is most likely going to be a dead duck in 90 days, why worry about degraded performance?
This may interest you.
http://www.oilru.com/or/47/1006/



< Message edited by Hanny -- 12/10/2019 12:01:18 PM >

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Post #: 181
RE: How to fix the game. - 12/10/2019 6:26:52 PM   
uw06670


Posts: 221
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the info. Perhaps I was thinking the engine destruction for trucks and tanks would come on more quickly. But sounds like even setting aside AVGAS the SU was eventually making fuel for these finicky foreign engines.

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Post #: 182
RE: How to fix the game. - 12/11/2019 6:55:03 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: uw06670

Thanks for all the info. Perhaps I was thinking the engine destruction for trucks and tanks would come on more quickly. But sounds like even setting aside AVGAS the SU was eventually making fuel for these finicky foreign engines.


Your all welcome.

Could be the case, it depends what engine (high or low compression, is the gasket changed and timing changed and the right oil used for the high octane fuel, if not problems, so its not as simple as just putting in different grade of fuel, if you do, all the rest has to be done as well) and know what different/forgien grade of fuel effects has on timing etc, was used. Stalling in a turn because the high performance aircraft engine requiring 100+ octane with low grade AVGAS reducing hp by around 25%, so no omph when you need it just a stutter and a stall, when you increase the fuel flow expecting more hp to arrive, means the planes a goner.

US training was done with low grade AVGAS, 91 octane on, combat pilots being retrained sometimes killed themselves or lost the plane when training on new models as they were used to 100-150 octane.

Common in all theatres was the rationing of petrol, and use of downed aircraft fuel by civilians, Ploesti mission where a B-24 crashed and civilian used the planes fuel and got 100 yards before stalling.

Stalling your car otoh in the same kind of circumstances ( feels sluggish ill increase throttle) means your in the shop looking at a engine rebuild. Just putting it in and you can drain and flush it out without a rebuild.

Here is an online copy of LL, on page 11 is the volume of octane and blending agents sent.
https://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00013694/00003


< Message edited by Hanny -- 12/11/2019 9:12:57 AM >

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to uw06670)
Post #: 183
RE: How to fix the game. - 12/16/2019 4:24:58 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		My admirable opponent, in the first week of March 1942, ie the first Snow turn after blizzard, has launched an offensive, almost across the entire front, and conducted 150 battles, with unfortunately some success I might add. Dirty rotten Axis trick. And only losing 120 armoured vehicles. Like really??

This needs to be fixed. This is whats wrong with the game.

Historically this is 4 months ahead of schedule.

And out of 53 partisan units not one fired an offensive shot

< Message edited by 56ajax -- 12/16/2019 4:30:16 AM >

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Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

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Post #: 184
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