xhoel
Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaos45
xhoel...the issue is the game simulates Soviets taking massive Tank losses so its not an issue of soviet inflation. The issue is the game buys into the invincible German armor myth to much.
We had this discussion in one of the posts. I presented you with facts and you moved on to another point ignoring what I said. it was one of the reasons why I stopped replying to you and opted out of the discussion because you never adressed points made. Since you keep insisting on this argument here are 3 examples taken from AARs in the forum and 1 from a team game I am part of:
Xhoel vs Bitburgerdraft, T29 (1st of January 1942), AFV losses: 3.886 (Axis), 20.332 (Soviet).
BrianG vs HLYA, T33 (T33, 29th of January 1942), AFV losses: 5.801 (Axis), 21.597 (Soviet).
STEF78 vs Stelteck, (T32, 22nd of January 1942), AFV losses: 4.115 (Axis), 19.630 (Soviet).
2by3+ team game, (T29, 1st of January 1942), AFV losses: 3.185 (Axis), 19.710 (Soviet).
Historical AFV losses for 1941: 2.839 (German), 20.500 (Soviet).
You could argue that part of the Axis AFV losses in game are also losses from the Axis Allies, but those countries have such small AFV contigents that it cannot explain such high numbers that the Axis get. In 3 of those games the Soviets have suffered less casualties than they did historically yet the Axis (Germans) have always suffered higher AFV losses than was the case in reality.
So can you please please elaborate on what facts do you base the claim that Soviet AFV losses are inflated while the Germans take lower losses then historically?
quote:
Facts also back up my thesis that the Germans hid tank losses and only reported them when they absolutely had to. How else do you explain the JUL and AUG 1944 tank loss results?
Which facts? I asked you for a source and you didn't provide one. Classifying losses differently like morvael stated above does not mean that the Germans "hid" losses. Until you provide a reliable source for that I won't address this point again.
quote:
Look at the make up of Army Group Center--they really didn't have that many tanks when operation bagration started. Only a couple Panzer divisions were in action in the center for most of June and into July 1944....yet thousands of tanks were lost when most divisions in action weren't panzer divisions? Those losses are because they lost "long" term tank repair yards in the rear of AGC.
And that proves what?
quote:
I know you feel I'm a super Soviet fan boy but I can assure I'm not, I've just studied WW2 way to much for it not being my actual job lol. The soviets had lots of issues, and that resulted in basically obscene losses for them 1941-1943....in 1944 though they actually got the better of the Germans even on infantry losses in many operations, as most German losses in 1944 were permanent- KIA and POW while a larger chunk of the soviet casualties in 1944 were recoverable since they were suffering fewer POW and actually had transportation and better care of the wounded from a better support structure and well lend lease equipment. Stalin can be blamed for the massive soviet losses in 1945 as he rushed the offensives at the cost of soviet losses to try and secure more of Europe before the western allies got there.
Yes I agree on that but what does that have to do with the topic of AFV losses?
quote:
Also when I was younger and less studied many German generals seemed amazing, you know you read their books and your like man if only this Hitler guy hadn't kept making all these bad decisions and forcing the generals into bad battles an such....but the facts upon investigation and more well researched information point out that many of them weren't as great as they let on in their books. TIK a youtuber actually points to meetings and statements recorded at the time of various operations show that some of them are outright lying in their books. He does a good job of pointing out when lies were told to protect officers reputations and blame the fall guy Hitler that everyone hated at the end of WW2.
A common mistake that I am sure many people have made. I have long grown out of that and have no illusions about what the Germans or the Soviets were capable of. TIK makes good series and I enjoy the attention to detail that he puts in his videos. I have erased the "it was only Hitlers fault" idea from my head entirely and am more than capable of seeing that the failures of the German Army were given to a dictator who was long dead as an attempt by those surviving generals to put themselves in a better light, thus ignoring their own mistakes when writing their Autobiographies and other books related to the war. Hitler had faults and intervened in operations time and time again but that doesn't mean that German generals always knew what was best and it was always Hitler who ruined everything.
quote:
There is no dispute that on average a German soldier has more combat power than a soviet soldier in WW2 on the whole which is well represented in the game. Some studies also say the German soldier was better than any allied soldier....however that is debatable as casualty exchange rates on the Western front esp 1944/45 France/Germany were not so much in the Germans favor. That can be explained by allied support superiority but is that a bad thing for the soldier on the front? and is that not the same advantage the Germans had against the Soviets for 1941-43 on the eastern front which helped give them such a high exchange ratio? So you can get into some debates on that.
I don't think you can compare the Western front in 44-45 to the Eastern Front in 1941-43. The Soviets suffered immensely and it is a test to their will as a nation that they were able to stand their ground against Nazi Germany which should be applauded. That being said the Soviets were focused on 1 front, had an industry that wasn't being bombed day and night, had enough manpower, had enough help from the Western Allies (both in terms of material provided through Lend Lease and in the opening of other fronts which pulled substantial German resources away from the East) and they didn't have fuel shortages. The Germans in 1944 were fighting on 3 fronts (East, West, Italy). Their air force was in tatters which allowed the Allies to have complete superiority in the air (as opposed to local superiority the Germans had in the East). The Germans did not have the same manpower reserves as the Soviets nor did they have an intact industry hidden away in the Urals and they were fighting a coaltion of major powers that had an unending supply of everything from men, to tanks, to planes, to supplies etc. Add to that the fact that in 1944 Germany had been stripped of almost all of its Allies (which never had the same power as the US or GB did).
EDIT: Updated German AFV losses with more accurate numbers.
< Message edited by xhoel -- 5/16/2019 2:18:26 PM >
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