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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending in a hex alone?

 
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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/16/2019 4:19:58 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Next I again canceled your attacks, ignored the opportunity to Overrun, and set up my own attacks. The result was that the defender evaporated halfway thru the six-hour turn. Three hours to remove the threat!

I can see why some would look at the situation and cry foul over an artillery unit being so surrounded and out numbered putting up a good fight, but overall I see nothing that I think should cause concern.

I'll add that I've played the heck out of both Bulge 44 and Goodwood and at times both scenarios can cause aggravation, but again nothing that seems like an issue with the game or scenario.




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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/16/2019 4:31:58 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Here is my Combat Planner for the first round attack I made. Doesn't mean anything to me, but maybe it helps somebody else. Sometimes I think that it is best in a situation like this to attack with a few units at minimal losses in order to gauge what is going on. Sometimes attacking with a bunch of units from all directions doesn't accomplish much and can burn a bunch of rounds.




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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/16/2019 11:01:40 AM   
Shadrach


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From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		I was unable to trigger an overrun with the mechanised unit when I tried, it seems kind of random at times when you can or can't do so. Doing a bombard at first round is always a good idea to reduce losses, and I usually would do so. In this instance the whole point, from the first post in the thread, was to show that attacking a single artillery support unit would cause excess losses to the attacker.

You still lost an ~7% for the three rounds used for the attacks, so I suspect your losses would still have been in the 30+ squads range. So that's still 300+ men, and equipment, to take out a dozen unguided rocket launchers who should be incapable of actually doing much damage in such a situation.

My theory is that the game uses the Anti-personnel strength of the Nw. units to calculate the AP value of the defender, even if these units should not be capable of doing direct fire at an attacking force like that. I think that's what also happens with other artillery units as reported in the first post of this thread by Icedawg.

Isn't there a flag to tell if a unit is capable of direct fire or not?


< Message edited by Shadrach -- 5/16/2019 11:02:04 AM >

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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/16/2019 11:29:32 AM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		In reality all units are capable of direct fire. An artillery unit of 12 tubes still has two (albeit extreme options) in the real world and even in the game. The 12 or so tubes are manned by 4 to 12 men (sometimes more) each and there have been many accounts when brave artillery men trained their guns over open sights, they usually get overrun, but still inflict damage.

Also in the game I dont' think all losses are KIA, they are also WIA and POW.

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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/16/2019 1:14:40 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

Isn't there a flag to tell if a unit is capable of direct fire or not?


More like there is an absence of such a flag.

There is a flag value for equipment that can conduct ranged fire, which for TOAW, means indirect fire farther than an adjacent hex.

On the defense strength of the rocket launchers. Goodwood has a modified equipment file. The ranges of the Nebelwerfer units have been increased (probably to reflect more accurately their actual range), but the range extension affected the defense strength of the 150mm NW (increased from 1 to 2), and the 210mm NW (increased from 1 to 3).

This defense strength is auto-generated by TOAW for guns, and is determined by the range of the artillery piece.

My take, the defense strength of "1", like that of light guns, is probably more accurate for Nebelwerfers, but that can only be changed if one reduces their range beyond what is now shown in the Goodwood equipment file. Modifying the DF rating in the equipment file won't help because this is an auto-generated value.

That noted, the increase in defense strength may be a wash in this situation (or not, depending on terrain, supply, etc.)

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 5/16/2019 1:16:48 PM >

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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/16/2019 2:08:25 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		The range in the scenario is 15km. This is twice the range it should be.

Chamberlain, Peter (1975). Mortars and rockets. Gander, Terry. New York: Arco Pub. Co. pp. 36–37. ISBN 0668038179. OCLC 2067459.

Germany's Rocket and Recoilless Weapons from the U.S. Intelligence Bulletin, March 1945

15 cm Nebelwerfer 41, Catalog of Enemy Ordnance, 1945.

http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/German%20and%20Japanese%20Solid-Fuel%20Rocket%20Weapons.pdf (page 7 shows a 8cm HEAT round that I find of great interest mainly because it looks so much like HEAT rounds of more modern armies)

< Message edited by Lobster -- 5/16/2019 3:04:03 PM >

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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/16/2019 3:59:14 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

So that's still 300+ men, and equipment, to take out a dozen unguided rocket launchers who should be incapable of actually doing much damage in such a situation.

But you are not accounting for Supporting Fire [which could be bringing down a lot of artillery on a lot of the enemy which is bunched together]. Additionally I would agree with Don that most if not all 'indirect' fire weapons could still be fired directly when threatened at close range [and especially when no retreat was possible].

Goodwood is an older design from when the 1km scale was not available, so if you try to analyze some of the stats at face value you will fail.

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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/17/2019 12:53:38 PM   
gliz2

 

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Status: offline 		I don't seem to follow the logic.

It's better to leave them doors open for defender to minimize attacker losses, is that what you guys are saying?
An entrenched artillery cannot easily change it's position and being surrounded means actually higher losses for the defender and higher probability of being overrun and of surrender.

The "back-to-the-pool" rules are extremely strange. Yes some units were able to retrieve "lost" equipment but on a rare occasions and mostly only when having operational initiative.
Example are the Sch.Pz.Bn. which had hihg recovery rates up to 1944.

Still how on earth lost equipment magicaly is moved to the pool from the enemy is beyond me?

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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/17/2019 1:32:41 PM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		All war games are abstraction to some degree and level, both computerized and paper war games.

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RE: Why are artillery units so powerful when defending ... - 5/17/2019 2:01:02 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

The "back-to-the-pool" rules are extremely strange. Yes some units were able to retrieve "lost" equipment but on a rare occasions and mostly only when having operational initiative.
Example are the Sch.Pz.Bn. which had hihg recovery rates up to 1944.

Still how on earth lost equipment magicaly is moved to the pool from the enemy is beyond me?


Losses are not just Killed, Wounded, and Captured. Some are just scattered by the chaos of the battle. They are ineffective for a while, but will eventually be rounded up and returned to action.

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