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Air-to-surface rockets in SPWAW

 
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Air-to-surface rockets in SPWAW - 6/26/2003 4:29:00 AM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		I have noticed that Air-to-surface rockets hit almost half the time (about 43% of the time since I started keeping records) in SPWAW. I have done a bit of research on this and found out that the probability of an air-fired missile hitting a tank in training was about 10%. These tanks were in the open, stationary, with no defensive fire protecting them. The probability dropped to less than 1% per rocket fired in combat, according to the RAF. That is, there was a tank destroyed about every 15-20 salvos fired from the air.

When posting on Yahoo! tankers’ group (there are many VERY SERIOUS researchers that post there) I was asking about the rockets’ effectiveness against tanks and got this post from a Brit in the group:

“I talked to a Hurri pilot who used rockets and said that his squadron had
non glamour experience with the rockets as goes for the accuracy. It was
almost impossible to hit a moving vehicle, even a single nonmoving vehicle
was hard to hit with the salvo. They used rockets for more area attack on
soft targets (artillery for example) and buildings.”

What makes it worse is in SPWAW on a single pass, a plane can fire rockets AND drop bombs effectively…even on tanks hidden in woods and obscured by smoke! Another thing that gets me is that as soon as a tank is destroyed, the plane stops firing rockets. In reality, the pilot wouldn’t know if he got a hit until all the rockets were fired. Also, planes normally had to make at least two passes in order to fire…one to find a target, the second to fire. In SPWAW the planes come on with no warning, fire and leave.

BTW, 20mm-75mm cannon were quite effective against tanks.

Is there any way I can cut the effectiveness of the rockets in SPWAW?

Thanks
WW
Post #: 1
- 6/26/2003 4:56:47 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		correct what u say. air combat is a little screwed up in the game.

the same goes w/ bombings on infantry - even if in cover in good terrain sometimes complete squads are destroyed by relativly light bombs.

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Post #: 2
- 6/26/2003 8:06:57 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		The more I read the more confused I am about Fighter bombers

The germans were scared to death of them and report huge losses to them...while the Allies say that kills were rare

I dont know who to believe

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Post #: 3
P-47 - 6/26/2003 8:49:15 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
[B]The more I read the more confused I am about Fighter bombers

The germans were scared to death of them and report huge losses to them...while the Allies say that kills were rare

I dont know who to believe [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi the P-47 Thunderbolts dropped 132,482 tons of bombs, fired 59,567 rockets, and expended 135 million belts of machine gun ammunition.

From D-Day to V-E Day in Europe, Thunderbolts destroyed 86,000 railway cars, 9000 locomotives, 6000 armored vehicles and tanks, and 68,000 trucks. By the end of the war, Thunderbolts had destroyed 2752 enemy aircraft in the air and 3315 on the ground.

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Re: P-47 - 6/26/2003 10:14:11 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]

From D-Day to V-E Day in Europe, Thunderbolts destroyed 86,000 railway cars, 9000 locomotives, 6000 armored vehicles and tanks, and 68,000 trucks. By the end of the war, Thunderbolts had destroyed 2752 enemy aircraft in the air and 3315 on the ground. [/B][/QUOTE]

These figures based on pilots reports? If so, then you can divide them by 5-8 to get a more correct number. Rather impressive number still.

Voriax

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Post #: 5
- 6/26/2003 10:35:55 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
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From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		If we can find a way to have the German Tank Crews jump out of their tanks and hide so long as a US Fighter Bomber is in ear shot( like the really did) , then I say we cut back a little on how effective the rockets are in the game. hehehehehe.. just being evil :)

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Post #: 6
- 6/26/2003 12:32:38 PM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		[I]Originally posted by Ammo Sgt.[/I]

[QUOTE]If we can find a way to have the German Tank Crews jump out of their tanks and hide so long as a US Fighter Bomber is in ear shot([/QUOTE]

I'm in total agreement with this! I'm sure a lot of the damage done by tactical airstrikes (both by Stuka's early in the war and Jabo's later on) in WWII was psychological ... much like 'tank scare' if you have little defence against something, then you fear it out of all proportion to it's actual threat ... In Spwaw I've always justified the massive game modelled damage of Airstrikes against the substantial suppressive effect of everyone in the vicinity of the strike diving into the nearest ditch just in case they were the target ! :D

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Post #: 7
- 6/26/2003 7:13:01 PM   
Losqualo


Posts: 511
Joined: 5/23/2003
From: Stuttgart, Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
[B]The germans were scared to death of them and report huge losses to them...while the Allies say that kills were rare

I dont know who to believe [/B][/QUOTE]

I think most of the ground forces were (and still are) scared of Fighter/Bombers. Due to the overwhelming air superiority of the allies this was even more true for the germans.
After D-day german tanks, HT's and other vehicles were whenever possible hidden by day and moved only at night.

Regarding tanks, the bombs or rockets were the smallest problem. Due to the construction of the Tigers, Panthers and many other german armoured vehicles, they had rather large engine ventilation louvres. One single .30 bullet that hit the engine room was often enough to stop that tank.
Since the germans were on the retreat, it was most of the time impossible to recover the tank, so it had to be abandoned. Even if they had the time, due to the weight of the tank, trying to recover that tank was often hopeless. Three of the heaviest german prime movers (SdKfz 9 or "FAMO") were needed to tow one single Tiger.

Besides that, I also think that air power in SPWAW is overrated. Even if it was historically correct (which I doubt), SPWAW still is a ground combat simulation. An overrated part of a simulation, and one that you even can't control much, takes some fun out IMHO (that goes for attacker [B]and[/B] defender).

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Post #: 8
- 6/27/2003 11:31:22 PM   
Akmatov

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Curious, what is the name of the yahoo 'tankers group'? I'll a search turned up was stuff about boats.

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Post #: 9
Re: P-47 - 6/28/2003 2:36:05 AM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi the P-47 Thunderbolts dropped 132,482 tons of bombs, fired 59,567 rockets, and expended 135 million belts of machine gun ammunition.

From D-Day to V-E Day in Europe, Thunderbolts destroyed 86,000 railway cars, 9000 locomotives, 6000 armored vehicles and tanks, and 68,000 trucks. By the end of the war, Thunderbolts had destroyed 2752 enemy aircraft in the air and 3315 on the ground. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry it took me so ling to respond...I keep getting logged out of the board for some reason!

The RAF (or so I have read) estimated that pilots overestimated their TANK kills by about a factor of ten. This was based on the location of claimed kills and when the area was taken by friendly troops, the number of dead tanks found. There are many reasons for this, not just bragging. Most damage done to a tank by a machine gun was an engine roof or vent hit, which would take the engine out, but it could be repaired and the tank would be towed off and fixed. Also, lots of dust is kicked up by the MG’s, making the tank look like it is smoking. Small fires could be started on the tank, which would also make it look as thought the tank is KO’ed.

“Armored vehicles” include halftracks and armored cars, against which .50 cal’s would be much more effective. Did the Germans even HAVE 6000 AFV’s on the Western Front? :D

-WW

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Post #: 10
- 6/28/2003 3:22:14 AM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Akmatov
[B]Curious, what is the name of the yahoo 'tankers group'? I'll a search turned up was stuff about boats. [/B][/QUOTE]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tankers/

-WW

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Post #: 11
- 6/28/2003 3:24:23 AM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by werderwayne
[B]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tankers/

-WW [/B][/QUOTE]

I forgot ...sometimes we get oil tanker posts. One guy put an ad on the board for an oil tanker. Then he got really nasty when we told him he should be looking for a different board.

-WW

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Post #: 12
Re: Air-to-surface rockets in SPWAW - 6/28/2003 3:26:21 AM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by werderwayne
[B]
When posting on Yahoo! tankers’ group (there are many VERY SERIOUS researchers that post there) WW [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, BTW, when I said "VERY SERIOUS" I meant that they have NO SENSE OF HUMOR! :D

-WW

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Post #: 13
- 6/28/2003 7:09:22 PM   
Sentry

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 6/16/2003
From: Jõgeva,Estonia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]correct what u say. air combat is a little screwed up in the game.

the same goes w/ bombings on infantry - even if in cover in good terrain sometimes complete squads are destroyed by relativly light bombs. [/B][/QUOTE]



Its not only air combat thats screwed.FLAK almost never hits anything in the air.I understand if 20mm Flakvirling doesnt pick off
PE-2 (dive bomber) but these guns were really deadly against low-level fighter-bombers (P-39,Typhoon,IL-2,Lagg-3).
It is very rare,when flak manages to shoot down one plane during the battle and there are about 6-8 planes who decimate my infantry with 50kg bombs :mad: . Big caliber flaks have basically same ratio against air target,but atleast i can use them as last minute help against armor.

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Post #: 14
- 6/28/2003 7:24:14 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		werderwayne:
quote:

“Armored vehicles” include halftracks and armored cars, against which .50 cal’s would be much more effective. Did the Germans even HAVE 6000 AFV’s on the Western Front?


Hilarious. That's the same thing I was thinking. To say nothing of that same ONE type of plane, also shooting down 2,752 enemy aircraft "IN THE AIR", all in nine monthes time. And to think somebody just yesterday was trying to get me to believe the GE Western Front was pretty much devoid of armor. I do wish these historians would get their stories straight.

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Post #: 15
Air power - 6/28/2003 7:32:34 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, For me the air attack question is a matter of time period.
If I am German on the Western Front in 1944-45 I expect to be hounded by aircraft. Unless the weather is such that enemy aircraft are grounded the reality was Allied aircraft were always a consideration and could appear at any moment.

More Tigers/Panthers were destroyed by aircraft then by the rest of the methods combined. The standard American response when a ground formation encountered German armor was to call in the air support.

Of course people playing SPWaW don't want enemy aircraft showing up and wreaking their units. Even if it is what would likely take place in actual battle.

(Read my thread "Shortest Battle Ever" where the Luftwaffe ended a game before any combat took place.)

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Post #: 16
Re: Re: P-47 - 6/28/2003 8:03:36 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by werderwayne
[B]Sorry it took me so ling to respond...I keep getting logged out of the board for some reason!

The RAF (or so I have read) estimated that pilots overestimated their TANK kills by about a factor of ten. This was based on the location of claimed kills and when the area was taken by friendly troops, the number of dead tanks found. There are many reasons for this, not just bragging. Most damage done to a tank by a machine gun was an engine roof or vent hit, which would take the engine out, but it could be repaired and the tank would be towed off and fixed. Also, lots of dust is kicked up by the MG’s, making the tank look like it is smoking. Small fires could be started on the tank, which would also make it look as thought the tank is KO’ed.

“Armored vehicles” include halftracks and armored cars, against which .50 cal’s would be much more effective. Did the Germans even HAVE 6000 AFV’s on the Western Front? :D

-WW [/B][/QUOTE]

no. at least in the normandy fightings the germans didn´t had that much armor.

but even a damaged tank was a loss in this time period !

because the allied needed time to consolidate their bridgehead and bring heavy weapons to bear.

so any delay to the german attacks were deadly for them as the history proved. most armor units could only move in bad weather or at night due to the absolute allied air supremacy.

but even as deadly were that hitler + high command generals still believed in a landing at the pas de calais, so the divs sitting there were not comitted to the normandy.....

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Post #: 17
- 6/28/2003 8:11:43 PM   
LordCucumber

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Holland
Status: offline 		Most armor was ordered (very unlike Hitler, but still he issued it) to withdraw from Normandy in the weeks after D-Day. The Americans and the Canadians tried to stop the armor heading east between Falaise and Argentan, but most got away. The Germans were masters in making hasty retreats without too much casualties (in fact, one could say, they were superior in most tactics on the battlefield, retreat being one of them).

The fact that Hitler actually ordered this, underlines the fact that the Germans were losing armor in the west. Fast. They had to salvage what they could, mostly because of allied air superiority.

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Post #: 18
- 6/28/2003 8:33:45 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Mogami:
quote:

More Tigers/Panthers were destroyed by aircraft then by the rest of the methods combined. The standard American response when a ground formation encountered German armor was to call in the air support.


6,000 AFV's in 9 monthes, by ONE TYPE OF PLANE? And you believe that? Was Rudel piloting them all? What about the Mustangs, Spits, Typhoons, and Lightnings? GO for another 6,000 at least? Do you realize that TOTAL GE production for AFV's for the war was 87,000? It's probably fair to say that GE AFV losses were probably 80% or higher to all the other fighting done outside post D-Day Western/Southern Fronts. If that's true that pretty much left the US with no reason to build Pershings, because the GE's sure didn't have any tanks left after the flyboys exaggerated kills.

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Post #: 19
P-47's - 6/28/2003 8:41:33 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, 6k AFV is less then 1 per P-47. (there were 15k P-47) They flew 500000 missions. So killing a german AFV was a very rare event as far as P-47's were concerned.

At the end of May 1944 there were 1,994 German tanks in the West. (Not Halftrack, or recon vechicle which are also AFV)
Production of AFV
(5197 Pz-IV in 44 and 45)
(688 Pz-III in 44 and 45)
(4973 Pz-V in 44 and 45)
(1559 Pz-VI in 44 and 45)
(3456 built on Czech 38 in 44 and 45)
(394 flak Pz in 44 and 45)
(8030 Stug type in 44 and 45)
(557 recon type in 44 and 45)
(10908 half track in 44 and 45)


35762 total new AFV produced in 44 and 45. So 6k does not look as impressive or impossible as before (the 35k does not include any AFV built before 1944)

I forgot the 151 Pz-II built in 44 (recon)

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Post #: 20
- 6/28/2003 10:00:34 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		The 6k still looks quite impossible.

Here are some figures about how effective the ground attack craft were and how exxagerated the pilots kill claims were:

http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/hobbies/rocket.txt

Voriax

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Post #: 21
6k - 6/28/2003 10:07:12 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]The 6k still looks quite impossible.

Here are some figures about how effective the ground attack craft were and how exxagerated the pilots kill claims were:

http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/hobbies/rocket.txt

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, Well some people can not be convinced no matter what the data says.
If there were over 35k German AFV then 6k is less then 17 percent. The number is not that high. Also it is fact that allied aircraft destroyed majority of German AFV. (not Allied ground unit)

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Post #: 22
- 6/28/2003 10:12:07 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Mogami: I think you're looking at the wrong end of the figures. One P47 could destroy 100,000 balsa wood airplanes during the course of the war, which proves nothing. You have to ask yourself how many AFV's did GE have TOTAL in the West and start from there. If you use the reasoning that high activity alone is sufficient to explain exaggerated losses, then you might as well credit them with more AFV kills than the GE"s had AFV's while you're at it.

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Post #: 23
The Death of Wittman - 6/28/2003 10:24:13 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Everyones favorite German Panzer commander was killed by a rocket

Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck. further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the turret into the air.
.


Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB - attack aircraft. Typhoons were armed with HE (High-explosive) rockets and took heavy tow of German tanks during the Normandy battles (for example on August 8th of 1944, Typhoons destroyed 135 German tanks and among those Tiger #007). Michael Wittmann and his crew was killed in action on August 8th of 1944, at Gaumesnil near Cintheaux. In March of 1983, the unmarked field grave of Tiger #007's crew was discovered during the construction of the road and was excavated. It was possible to identify the remains by Wittmann's dental records and Heinrich Reimers's (driver) identification tag. Wittmann and his crew was then officially buried in the German Military Cemetery of "De La Cambe" in Normandy, France. That event had fully proven the exact location of Wittmann's Tiger and its fate as previosly suggested by Mr.Varin.

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Re: 6k - 6/28/2003 10:24:54 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, Well some people can not be convinced no matter what the data says.
[/B][/QUOTE]

True, and the majority of those 35k AFV's were certainly in the East Front. Taking that into consideration it suddendly looks like Tbolt pilots claimed they destroyed perhaps half of the AFV's in the West.

Ad if you looked at those numbers that are a result of examining battle areas right after the battle itself you could see that 'destroyed by crew' usually accounts several times of the kills achieved by air attack.

Voriax

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Post #: 25
Kills - 6/28/2003 10:25:09 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]Mogami: I think you're looking at the wrong end of the figures. One P47 could destroy 100,000 balsa wood airplanes during the course of the war, which proves nothing. You have to ask yourself how many AFV's did GE have TOTAL in the West and start from there. If you use the reasoning that high activity alone is sufficient to explain exaggerated losses, then you might as well credit them with more AFV kills than the GE"s had AFV's while you're at it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, I don't credit them with more. I say it was less then 17 percent. The Germans credit them with more. (They report most AFV loss due to enemy air)

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Post #: 26
Re: Re: 6k - 6/28/2003 10:28:40 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]True, and the majority of those 35k AFV's were certainly in the East Front. Taking that into consideration it suddendly looks like Tbolt pilots claimed they destroyed perhaps half of the AFV's in the West.

Ad if you looked at those numbers that are a result of examining battle areas right after the battle itself you could see that 'destroyed by crew' usually accounts several times of the kills achieved by air attack.

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, I think destroyed by crew as a result of air attack is grounds for crediting the aircraft. the 35k is new production there were nearly 2k tanks in the west in May 44 (not counting HT or other AFV) Certainly many more were sent after that date. I really don't see what is so difficult to believe about these numbers. What do you think killed the German armor in the west (not to say in the east Soviet air was not destroying german AFV)

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Re: Re: Re: 6k - 6/28/2003 10:44:02 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, I think destroyed by crew as a result of air attack is grounds for crediting the aircraft. the 35k is new production there were nearly 2k tanks in the west in May 44 (not counting HT or other AFV) Certainly many more were sent after that date. I really don't see what is so difficult to believe about these numbers. What do you think killed the German armor in the west (not to say in the east Soviet air was not destroying german AFV) [/B][/QUOTE]

*sigh*

May I remind all that the original question for this topic was why almost 50% of aircraft attacks result hitting a tank/vehicle which quite normally causes a kill.

While allied air power probably was a main cause in destruction of German tank force in the west, this was mostly caused by destroying transport facilities (rail, bridges), preventing supplies to arrive and generally causing suppression and hindering movement. The effect and accuracy of any allied aircraft against any single German tank was very, very low.

Also, destroyed by crew does not in any way claim that the need to destroy the tank was *directly* related to air attack. Most likely reasons are mechanical breakdown or running out of gas.

The accuracy of aircraft in the SPWaW still is hilarious. A plane making a ground attack run would fly at very low altitude (50m or so) and the attack run would often start at 1000m+, closing to 100m of the target. During this time the ac would be very vulnerable to any flak that happens to be in range. But in the game whatever flak there is doesn't even affect the accuracy of ac very much, not mentioning that they might even force the ac to drop it's ordnance prematurely and abort the attack.

I personally like to use ac in the game. Unless I'm facing US troops (.50cal AA everywhere) it's not unusual to get even 2-3 kills /aircraft.

Of course, if the hit ratio in the game would be even somewhere close to historic levels, like 2%, then no-one would buy aircraft except perhaps those with large conventional bombs. They cause lot of damage to infantry because of splash effect and of course give you recon.

It'll be interesting to see how ground attack is handled in CL

Voriax

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Post #: 28
Re: Air-to-surface rockets in SPWAW - 6/28/2003 10:49:13 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by werderwayne
[B]

Is there any way I can cut the effectiveness of the rockets in SPWAW?

Thanks
WW [/B][/QUOTE]

I think the only way besides editing OOB's is to go to the preferences and set 'Arty vs Armour' to a lower value.

Voriax

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Post #: 29
Aircraft - 6/28/2003 10:54:22 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I was just using the example you provided where it was stated many Tanks/AFV in good condition were found abandoned after air attack.

In that piece over 1k German AFV were verified as destroyed by or as a result of airattack (and it only covered a very limited number of days)

If only 2 percent of rockets fired by P-47 hit a AFV they would have hit 1180. (leaving a few for bombs and MG. (A .50cal can destroy a Tiger from above)

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