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Re: Aircraft - 6/28/2003 11:13:11 PM   
Voriax

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, I was just using the example you provided where it was stated many Tanks/AFV in good condition were found abandoned after air attack.

In that piece over 1k German AFV were verified as destroyed by or as a result of airattack (and it only covered a very limited number of days)

[/B][/QUOTE]

:) Are we reading the same article? Aren't you counting soft skinned vehicles too?
Quote:
The retreat to the Seine clearly reveals the limitations of Allied air-to-ground weapons against tanks, particularly the 3-inch rocket. Only ten out of 301 tanks and SP guns examined, and three out of 87 armoured troop carriers examined, were found to have been destroyed by this weapon - these figures must be compared with 222 claims of armour destruction made by Typhoon pilots alone.

And anothe quote:

The 'Chase' area yielded a count of 3 648 vehicles and guns, and of 3 332 light armoured and soft-skin vehicles, 2 390 were classed as burnt and 942 unburnt. The ORS were unable to cover every road in such an extensive area, so the absolute number of vehicles and guns was unknown but thought to be less than twice that recorded. Of the 150 tanks and self-propelled guns 98 were examined. None were found to have been destroyed by rockets, nor were there any craters to suggest rocket attacks had been made in the area. Most, amounting to some 81 per cent, had been destroyed by their crews or abandoned.

For me this quite clearly states how useless rockets were against tanks and how overpowered they are in the game.

Voriax

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Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 31
Rockets - 6/28/2003 11:18:17 PM   
mogami


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Hi, Tell Wittman how useless rockets were versus tanks.
As for the claim most of the 35k new AFV were sent east I can only replie my understanding of the period after Normany was Hitler thought by fighting hard in the west and allowing the east to advance he could get the western alliance to end the war. (faced by the prospect of the Soviets over running eastern Europe the allies would sign a seperate peace.) He therefore ordered most new production to be used in the west.

Also I do not think the AFV claimed destroyed is limited to France 1944 or later. I'm certain it dates from the first use of P-47.
The P-47 became the main USAAF ground attack aircraft. And many of the claims are Italain front

Dispite the heavy loss Panzer totals after Normandy continued to rise.
German Panzer Strength
June of 1941 to January of 1945.
Date: Quantity: Date: Quantity:
06/1941 5639 06/1944 9148
03/1942 5087 09/1944 10563
05/1942 5847 10/1944 11005
11/1942 7798 11/1944 12236
03/1943 5625 12/1944 13175
08/1943 7703 01/1945 13362
(note not included are APC/Recon/Stug)

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Post #: 32
- 6/28/2003 11:36:01 PM   
Voriax

 

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Hello

Do you know the saying: "One Swallow doesn't make a Summer"? :)

Even if those kill counts started earlier, they still are very, very much inflated *if* they are based on pilots reports. The fact is that allied commanders realized already during the war that most of the Air-to-Air and especially claims made by bomber gunners were just hot air, but they were allowed to keep their non-existent kills because of the morale.

Heck, even in the '91 Gulf war the Coalition pilots exxagerated their tank kills by a factor of 3 or so, and there was plenty of time to count the wrecks in the desert later on. I think the F-111 pilots only doubled their numbers :)

Voriax

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Post #: 33
Rundstedt's view - 6/28/2003 11:56:03 PM   
mogami


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H. Q., 20.6.1944. Commander-in-Chief West, (High Command, Army Group D) Operations
Section No. 5050/44

Experiences from the Invasion Battles of Normandy

A. Preliminary Remarks

1. Experiences fulfill their purposes only when they are quickly brought to the attention of the
troops. This happens from time to time through the medium of individual teletype messages.

2. The following experiences summarize what has happened so far. It is left to the duty stations
named under "Distributor" to make the evaluation and to fill in details according to their own
judgment.

B.

The following most recent battle experiences confirm in broad outlines all the experiences which
were made known regarding Sicily, Salerno, Nottuno and those other heavy defensive battles in
Italy.

The proximity of the English mother country and thus also of all the embarkation and supply
bases afforded to the Anglo-Saxons in their first great land attack against the Western Bay of the
Seine and against the peninsula of the Cotentin the opportunity of employment on the greatest
scale so far of men, material and technical means. Systematic, almost scientifically conducted
preparations in all fields for this attack were rendered more easy in every respect by a
far-reaching network of agents in the occupied area of the west. The orders for the preparation
and the carrying out of the landing are books with numerous enclosures

The following most important battle experiences are to be passed on as the subject of instruction
and drill in all fronts not yet attacked for the attention of the troops and command authorities in
the battle area and for the instruction of all duty stations, protective forces, etc., in the entire
protecting area.

I

I--Four facts which must be emphasized:

(1) The enemy's complete mastery in the air.

(2) The skillful and large-scale employment of enemy parachute and airborne troops,

(3) The flexible and well-directed support of the land troops by ships' artillery of strong English
naval units ranging from battleship to gunboat.

(4) The rehearsal of the enemy invasion units for their task; most precise knowledge of the coast,
of its obstacles and defense establishments, swift building up of superiority in numbers and
material on the bridgehead after just a few days.

Opposed to this stands the quality of the German soldier, his steadfastness and his unqualified
will to fight to the fast with army, navy and air force.

All three branches of the service have given their best and will continue to give it.

II -- The Enemy Landing Procedure in Broad Outlines:

(a) The enemy had hoped to be able to surprise us. He did not succeed. The beginning of landings from the air on the Western Bay of the Seine and in the Cotentin was on June 6, 1944, at about 0100, under conditions of cloudy, overcast weather with a rather strong wind, intermittent showers and rough sea up to four degrees; at the same time at various sectors of the front strong enemy air formations delivered bombing attacks in the rear area. The enemy thereby wished to bring about an air raid alarm and make us take cover in order to be able to drop his parachute troops with as little risk of observation as possible. In several places parachutists turned out to be dummies (with boxes containing explosives). Purpose: Splitting up of local reserves and withdrawal from the decisive spot, involving loss of time for the defender.

Airborne troops in many transport gliders of various sizes cut loose, in accordance with a precisely worked out plan, over the sea or at widely separated points over land, and on the whole they found their designated landing spots accurately. Nevertheless, these landings from the air were no surprise, since our own command and troops had counted on them for weeks and were prepared. Thus the enemy parachute and airborne troops suffered heavy--and in parts even extremely bloody--losses, and were in. most, places annihilated in the course of the battle. They did not succeed in breaking up the coastal defense from the rear. Only in the American bridgehead north of Carentan--by our own attack on three sides--were the enemy airborne troops compressed in the direction of the coastal defense after tough fighting for days, and thus they could link up with their own land forces which had already broken in and in this way were able to get reinforcement and relief.

The technique and tactics of the enemy airborne forces are highly developed. Training for battle Was also on a high level--tough fighters, skilled in adapting themselves to the terrain!

We must reckon with the possibility that, apart from proper parachute troops, special troops with particular tasks will also be dropped (reconnaissance and reporting on command posts, munition depots, communications to the rear, etc., demolitions, disruptions and attacks, or detailed from the airborne forces upon landing. These troops keep themselves perfectly quiet in order not to be discovered or involved in the battle. We must reckon with their exact knowledge of places and with employment of all possible means of assistance.

(b) The actual landing from the sea began four or five hours after the airborne landing. The enemy had changed his landing plans for coming in with the rising tide--plans which had hitherto been regarded by us as likely--and had adapted his landing operations to low tide because of the strong underwater obstacles along the beach, about which he had information.

This was recognized weeks before the actual landing by trial landings carried out in England. The enemy could thus discover gaps in the rows of underwater obstacles along the beach, by-pass the obstacles with his tanks, and for the rest open up passages and overcome in part these beach obstacles by his own special troops.

Where these obstacles were not discovered because they were under water, heavy enemy losses in landing craft and in men resulted, But obstacles on the dry beaches also noticeably delayed the tempo of the landing and consequently increased the enemy's losses by our fire.

Time of the landings from the sea.--Starting from 0600 hours in the morning, fully visible. Before the landing there was a heavy bombardment of extraordinary intensity from the sea and the air, with weapons of all calibers. The consequence was that all field defenses were more or less knocked out and "ploughed down," so that for the most part only the solid fortifications remained intact. The enemy seeped in through the gaps without trying to attack the fortifications and big strong points. These strong points held out in cases for over a week and therefore split up enemy forces. By holding out to the last they helped their own leaders very much to gain time and to prevent a breakthrough of the enemy from the bridgehead.

(c) Enemy air force,--Almost unlimited in radius, it controls in numbers not only the main battlefield but also the approach and supply roads to a depth of 150 to 200 km. Moreover, the enemy carries the battle right into the home-battlefront with his tactical bombers, in order to destroy the large railway systems, especially railway junctions, marshalling yards, locomotive shops, bridges and important works connected with the war industry.

Notwithstanding the highly developed railway system and the numerous good main and secondary roads, the enemy succeeded by attacking in force and uninterruptedly with his air force to interrupt supplies and replacements and cause so many casualties in rolling stock and motorized columns that supply and replacements have become a very serious problem. The nearer the battle area, the more frequently appear the fighters and bombers employed in "road-chasing," By their attacks they interrupt all major movements in good weather by day and by using flares at night. The emphasis of the enemy air attacks lay at first on the main highways. but now they are attacking every form of movement, covering an area of at least 20 km. behind the main line of resistance, as well as by-roads in the battlefield. Wherever the enemy's reconnaissance shows a disposition of troops, an attack by bomber formations follows within a short time. It is absolutely essential that motor vehicles keep long distances from each other within the columns.

Command posts are being given away by their wireless stations.-- Radio stations must therefore be at such a distance from the command post that the post is not covered in the bombsight or by sticks of bombs. Where the command posts are not fortified, they must be changed frequently. Planning reconnaissance is therefore essential; so is notification to the respective commanding authorities, so that the command post concerned can be found.

Within two and a half days, at a depth from the enemy bridgehead of about 65 miles, 29,000 enemy sorties were counted; of these, about 2,300 aircraft a day dive-bomb and strafe every movement on the ground, even a single soldier.

(4) Further Effects--Railroad transport which anyhow, because of the total traffic situation, has been reduced to a certain minimum, can scarcely be brought nearer than 200-250 kilometers from the front and this too, without any planned schedule. The sections of railway lines change hourly, according to the weather conditions; the trains may be in close succession (buffer to buffer) or they may travel only at night. Also, as was at once recognized, violent air attacks often lead to the blocking of transports within sections of railway lines. Railway terminals, and consequently the unloading of units or the setting up of supply bases, are constantly changing and require extraordinarily flexible leadership and mobile labor battalions for swift unloading the moment messages arrive.

Marches by day are obviously excluded in good weather. The short summer nights must be used from dusk to the morning shootinglight for exact reconnoitering of streets and crossings, for the preparation of smooth engagements, for quick marching in loose formation, for avoiding main streets and smoothly seeping into the rest areas where reconnoitering has been carried on. The troops must constantly be prepared for low flying attacks so that all means of protection for them against air attacks can be immediately put into effect. Long overland marches of half-track units and the bringing up of supplies in marches over long stretches lead also to losses though enemy action, to great wear and tear, and to technical defects. The elimination of these must be carefully organized in order that the calculations made by the command may be at least adhered to in some degree and that troops, supplies and replacements may be brought up to the appointed place in proper tine.

Our own systematically organized counter-measures must be applied to meet the methodical operational strategy of the enemy's warfare.

I--(a) In the safety belt, new units to be brought up on transports through all the designated transport duty stations must be instructed about the air situation, about their conduct when there is danger from the air and when an alert is sounded, and also about their actions during unloading.

Advance patrols cannot be sent ahead too soon. As it is, they will be held up by many circumstances. The Quartermaster of every advance patrol must regularly report to the High Command in the West or to the High Command of the Army.

According to the ruling of the General Commanding Troops in the West, great quantities of maps (small size) must be held ready at all unloading stations, which are to be given out by representatives of the transport commands to the incoming transports. (The same procedure to be followed in the case of quartermaster, High Command the Army, etc.)

On march, army patrols are to be detailed to provide guides familiar with the local areas and also other support to the relevant units. Reconnoitering of bridges to be carried on regularly in proper time, since in the interim new and unreported destructions may have taken place. The order of march and the guarding of the streets in the safety belt are the concern of the military commanders who have to be Informed in proper time by the appropriate command concerning the bringing up of units, concerning the march objectives and the march patrols, etc.

(b) In the battle area all the movements on the battlefield by day--the shifting of troop dispositions or the formation of new pivotal Positions--require much more time than was allocated originally even in a careful estimate, Therefore, movements and battles come into the foreground at dusk and during darkness in order to block out the effect of the enemy air force and the direct observation by enemy artillery.

The organization of the whole battle area (as a rule approximately the area of the "battle zone") requires the most rigid planning from the rear area up to the main battle line.

Street commanders are to be appointed to watch over all the traffic from and to the front, Circuitous routes around villages are to be mapped out and to be posted with signs. Signpost materials are to be prepared at destroyed crossings, roads in great danger from air attacks are to be provided with warning signs, and traffic shall pass through in very loose formation only in darkness or in weather conditions corresponding to darkness. Channels for the incoming and outgoing of supplies are to be fixed, as well as reconnoitered parking places for columns outside of the camps. At these places small intermediary supply depots, well dispersed, are to be set up at suitable places and to be made secure.

The employment of responsible officers (mostly from the fortress engineer staffs) are necessary for the continual repair of the streets; these officers along with our assigned units and with the help of the inhabitants must keep the streets in constant state of serviceability. Every light flak weapon not absolutely needed in the safety belt behind the battle zone--from objectives already destroyed or which now play a secondary role--is to be so used at supply bases in the battle area; low-flying aircraft will be warded off under all circumstances.

II--Camouflage in all forms must be stressed again and again.--Troop and column leaders must know that once a unit or column has been discovered by enemy aircraft it will be attacked from the air until put completely out of action, Therefore tank cover holes must be provided at irregular intervals to the right and left of the, road, under the direction of the officers who are responsible for the road columns, with the help of all available labor from the inhabitants and with the active, participation of the troops themselves, There is always need for camouflage adapted to the terrain. The roads should be cleared of damaged vehicles in the quickest possible time through the organized road clearance service.

III--The enemy had deployed very strong naval forces off the shores of the bridgehead. These can be used as quickly mobile, constantly available artillery, at points where they are necessary as defense against our attacks or as support for enemy attacks, During the day their fire is skillfully directed by observation balloons attached to the ships, by aircraft observers, and by advanced ground fire spotters. Because of the high rapid-fire capacity of naval guns they play an important part in the battle within their range. The movement of tanks by day, in open country, within the range of these naval guns is hardly possible.

IV--In one case the enemy broke into the attack of one of our own divisions which had gained good ground by employing airborne troops in such a manner that the supporting forces of the division were tied down in local fighting while moving up. This deprived the division of the success of its attack. We must reckon with the fact that the enemy will continue this practice, whenever our tanks are attacking. Therefore all units in the rear must be prepared for immediate defense in order to destroy airborne forces.

V--The enemy prepares smaller-scale attacks with barrage-like firing by using many trench mortars, which is followed by tank thrusts supported by motorized infantry.

VI--Strict control of the population must be exercised, especially of the "road bums" in the battle zone and in the rear areas. If every alarm unit is properly employed the road situation will soon become a different matter.

Suspicious persons, especially young men with "small suitcases," may have arrived secretly. Whoever does not belong in a particular place, whoever cannot give a clear account of the destination and the purpose of his wanderings, should be arrested and delivered to the labor forces.

VII--Means of Communications.--Wire connections in the battle area break down to the point of uselessness. Apart from radio, only the overland mechanical means of sending messages are left--the cyclist, the motorcycle messenger, the officer in the sidecar or in the light armored car, and for short distances the runner.

All troops and all commanders must strive to get a clear picture of all happenings and seek to establish contact with the higher and lower units, especially at times when the normal means of communications are lost. This is particularly important in the case of commanders who are receiving troops or larger formations. The commanders must be continually informed as to the position of the vanguard of such formations at any given time, and regarding the arrangements for rest and further marching. It is specially important for the command to be continually informed about the location of half-track units, which are a part of land movements.

Such formations or parts of formations are to be sought by detailed liaison officers, accompanied by them and when necessary have orders transmitted to them. The liaison officer knows where these formations will be during the next hours and can report it to his commander. He can also transmit the wishes of the troops in regard to provisions and supplies and attend to them.

During the first days of the big battle it follows of necessity that under certain conditions formations will be missed, or else in cases of need they may go into battle split up. This is only a passing emergency solution, As soon as conditions permit, clear formations and thereby clear orders are to be re-established.

I have purposely had these experiences set down in detail, because many formations in the West, are newly arriving forces, still do not know the practice of battle, in spite of all previously received orders and instructions.

Supreme Commander in the West,
(Signed) von Rundstedt,
Fieldmarshal


Notice the part where he points out that any German unit discovered will be attacked by air until it is out of action.

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Post #: 34
- 6/29/2003 12:06:00 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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So we are all agreed then ... whatever the actual hit percentage was .. Germans Abandoned Tanks and other Vehicles , armored and unarmored in the Thousands , and Armored support often did not make it to the battle itself , all because of Allied Air Power. So How do we implemet this into the game? Perhaps have a Air Panic gut check like the Tank Panic Gut check perhaps a 33% chance( Armor/ VehicleCrew Bails and implemets retreat to the rear every turn a Allied Fighter Bomber makes a appearance?) .. or maybe a Gut Check after purchase but before deployment to see what tanks/AFV/ Vehicles purchased actually showed up on the Battlefield itself, 50/50 chance of the Tank or other vehicle you buy actually makes it to the deployment screen ? . Perhaps both ? These numbers of course are for post D-Day West Front.. similar concept with adjusted numbers for other times/theaters ... including Allied Tank panic in the Early years ? .. Then we could look into readjusting the hit probablities on the rockets/ perhaps cannon as well? . Didn't Patton run a whole Campaign just using P-47's to secure his flanks ? seemed to be an effective tactic. Probably should look into the whole Air going after Tanks thing, and make it easier for the Aircraft to Target soft vehicles and infantry.. The Good ol' plain Straffing run on Infantry just to watch them scatter and die :) , Roads full of burning trucks and dead Infantry :) Be a nice change ...

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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Post #: 35
Air Power - 6/29/2003 12:15:54 AM   
mogami


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Hi, As can be seen in the year 2000 posts of mine concerning the Luftwaffe I didn't like German aircraft in Russia 1941 an later but rather then try to get them decreased in effectiness I changed my battlefield behaviour to take it into acount.

If you want to play realistic Germans on Western Front 1944-45 you have to asume allied aircraft will make an appearance. (or set the battle conditions to prevent it)

I was always offended by guys who wanted to have 5-6k German AFV and as a pre-condition wanted "no air"

It was how the war was fought. Allied Tanks were technically prohibited by order to engage German armor. The SOP was once contact was made air units were called in. I don't think you can find too many examples of Allied offensives that did not have large air assets assigned and where these assets were not the major factor.

Dispite all the humour around M-4 and Kats the truth is the Kats killed as many M-4 as they could and were then knocked out by air.

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Post #: 36
- 6/29/2003 12:35:37 AM   
Voriax

 

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Hmm..perhaps some pre-game 'gut checks' might be in order if you play a campaign. Of course there needs to be also a check to determine *if* there was any air activity pre-game. If there was not, then you'd get all your troops into battle (minus a breakdown or two, which might appear later)

And of course *both* sides need to make these checks...

However such checks are completely unnecessary when playing individual scenarios, imho. This is because the scen designer has already decided what units 'made' it to the battle.

Also a bailing check would ruin the game. As I see no reason to implement such checks to one nation only, I'd be happy to buy couple planes whenever possible, no matter what country I'm playing, just to see one third of enemy armour rendered ineffective while their crews jump under nearby bushes :)

Always remember that we are not talking about military simulation, but a game.

Voriax

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Post #: 37
Game - 6/29/2003 12:45:13 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Ah well there it is. The game people are not interested in the history just play balance. What ever that means (since getting rid of Allied air and it's effects unbalances the game from the allied players point of view.)

Speaking for myself, I want the "game" to produce historically plausabe results. As the Germans in 44-45 I want those allied aircraft overhead.

Why bother with all the data? Just make all the sides fight the same and use the same equipment. Why pretend you are simulating a real life historical event?

It was not fun to be a German on the Western Front 1944-45
It is still fun to endure this and still win the battle. It is asking for an unfair advantage to pretend the enemy did not have an airforce and that this airforce was one of the things a German feared most.

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Post #: 38
- 6/29/2003 1:02:44 AM   
Voriax

 

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In a way you are right, I do not care that much about political..sorry..historical correctness in large scale. This is btw one of the reasons why I think CC games sucked. No matter how much I kicked butt, if I was playing from *wrong* side I could not affect the events to my satisfaction because design script didn't allow it.

I also would like to see a SPWaW MC where I could first kick the Brits off their island and then kick the Americans into pacific, and I would not care a slightest bit about it being not historical.

One of the greatest strengths of any given military 'simulator' or 'game' is the possibility of what if.

Also, as SPWaW is not a strategic level game, it is not necessary imho to display the effects of rear area bombings. The average length of a SPWaW game is so short, that even with Allied or German or any nation's air superiority it is not certain that any aircraft will arrive at the scene in time. In pre-planned advance, yes but in meeting engagement style clash? Less likely. And I bet that when a FO request air support for cleaning a suspected position he won't get a squadron's worth of planes immediately, but more likely a lesser amount.

If allied air power killed everything in sight, why the Hell did it took so long to reach Germany????

Voriax

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Post #: 39
Long? - 6/29/2003 1:09:30 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Long????? From June 44 to May 45 is long? It was a race.

I understand you point of view. Myself I prefer the version where my 100 M-4's drive to Berlin blowing up every Tiger and Panther with first round hits.
I arrive, climb off my tank and go into the bunker and splatter der furher's brains all over the carpet with my Ivory Handled .45's.

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Post #: 40
- 6/29/2003 1:20:26 AM   
Voriax

 

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Mind you, I'm not a Katz driver even though I occasionally mock the M4 Tankette users.

I think the best SPWaW battle I've ever played was with Romanians against Sov's in 1943..or was it '44...

I won. :)

And I had fun. That's what finally matters.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 41
Airpower - 6/29/2003 1:31:24 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Concerning the time it would take for arty or air to appear in a battle. Allied units did not move forward before being assigned arty to respond to their call. Aircraft were "stacked" up overhead waiting a target to be assigned. In any scenario where you are Germans assigned to defend the very first thing on turn one should be enemy aircraft going over your front followed by a barrage. Then as the American/Allied force encounters your units they pause while fresh aircraft/arty deal with them.
This is how the Allies fought. It was also how the Germans fought campaigns where they had air control.
Try being French against Germans in 1940 and assigning the air units to the French. The Germans lose these type battles.
Fight the same battle again only remove the French air and assign Luftwaffe support. A German walk over. In battles without air. The French will give as good as they get.

(I've made many a SPWaW player squawk after a battle because my French defeated their Germans in 1940. (and whats funny is they were the ones that asked for "no air")

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Post #: 42
- 6/29/2003 1:31:42 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]

One of the greatest strengths of any given military 'simulator' or 'game' is the possibility of what if.

Also, as SPWaW is not a strategic level game, it is not necessary imho to display the effects of rear area bombings. The average length of a SPWaW game is so short, that even with Allied or German or any nation's air superiority it is not certain that any aircraft will arrive at the scene in time. In pre-planned advance, yes but in meeting engagement style clash? Less likely. And I bet that when a FO request air support for cleaning a suspected position he won't get a squadron's worth of planes immediately, but more likely a lesser amount.

If allied air power killed everything in sight, why the Hell did it took so long to reach Germany????

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL I can Agree with the "What If" but you can negotiate or design Scenarios leaving out actual Allied Capabilities and inserting Fantasy German Capabilites only if Both are actually in the Game .. I wouldn't mind a " What if" type game called "What if the Allies had almost all the stuff they really had" ... LOL
It took so long for a couple of reasons .. Brits had to stop for Tea and the Germans in 1944 were slightly better than the French were in 1940. Oh, and the Atlantic is wider than the Rhine. I think the "Tank Panic" and Non Arrivail Gut Checks should apply to any Army not having Air Superiority fighting against any Army that actually has a plauseable Air Interdiction capability.. A pair of ME-109's apperaing over Normandy probably would only get troops out of tanks out of curiosity , The Troops would have to be actually convinced that they were dangerious ... The German Troops in the ETO were convinced. Of Course, I could see a 2% chance that an Allied Tank Crew would dismount due to Axis Air in the ETO .
Please note the Praise heaped upon Allied Spotter Planes for the Great and Important job they did by the German High Command. Just be thankful you don't have to contend with them too .. Tiger Kiddies , what ya gonna do with them .. give them a tissue... poor dears ...

_____________________________

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Post #: 43
SPWaW - 6/29/2003 1:48:28 AM   
mogami


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Hi, The issue gets even whackier when you move to the Eastern Front. Most players feel the game is flawed beyond repair if they lose a German tank in a battle. They seem to think the war was just 4.5 years of Germans mowing down an endless stream of mongoloids before surrendering.
Try setting up the actual June 41 battles in the South where the Soviets squashed half of AGS's armor (try it in WIR)
German SPWaW player want to fight after July 43 and still drive to victory in their super tanks. (They want the fancy toys) But also they want to deny these actions didn't occur beyond short lived local events. (It was the USSR conducting all the offensive operations and winning)
Try using a Sturmovik in a PBEM game. (But don't complain about Wurferman or other Rockets)
The Soviets are much more shafted by "play balance" then the Germans versus American/Western Allies are.
Ever look to see what a "veteran" soviets ratings are compared to run of the mill Germans?

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Post #: 44
- 6/29/2003 1:52:27 AM   
Voriax

 

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Heh, in MC LV my 3 short-barreled Stug's eventually had way over 100 kills a piece. At least in there there was no need of any 'super' weapons, had those been available :)

KV's were and are a royal pain in the a** though.

Voriax

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Post #: 45
Stugs - 6/29/2003 1:55:05 AM   
mogami


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Heh, in MC LV my 3 short-barreled Stug's eventually had way over 100 kills a piece. At least in there there was no need of any 'super' weapons, had those been available :)

KV's were and are a royal pain in the a** though.

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, The war in the east became a stug versus soviet armor war.
Most stug production went east while the tanks went west.
Even then German soldiers prefered to be supported by stugs over Tigers. (The stugs stayed the Tigers always needed to depart for fuel)
In any battle where regular german infantry is the main element you should have stugs not tanks supporting (for (I dread saying it) realism)

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Post #: 46
- 6/29/2003 2:07:04 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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I think this will always be a debate

Grognards who want less of a game and more of a simulation and those of us who play these products to have some fun

In PBEM we have limits of how much arty we can buy

On the eastern front artillary divisions would pound a german front line area for a few hours then attack...
Let say you play a PBEM and one side buys 15,000 points of arty and pounds the german opponents forces for 60 turns

is this realistic?
Yes
Fun?
Of course not

I agree have NO air power on the western front is dumb
But buying a dozen P-47's and half a dozen P-38's to smash half of your opponents armor on the first turn isnt very much fun...

If thats realism (and it is)...then I dont want realistic games

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Post #: 47
- 6/29/2003 2:11:50 AM   
UndercoverNotChickenSalad


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Fallshirm you want some of this, BOY ?

BRING IT ! :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

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Post #: 48
- 6/29/2003 2:20:29 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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The Point here is about what is in the Game itself ... I understand PBEM players wanting to negotiate away the other sides good stuff .. and if you can strike a bargain with another player .. then so be it , you want to limit arty or air in a PBEM game fine with me .. But in order to limit it as a negotiation it has to be in the darn game to start with .. This fighting to keep allied stuff out of the game , or dumb it down to the point it is useless is NOT helping the game.. the game should be made as realisticly rated and as inculsive of actual capabilities as possible for all sides , you want to negotiate away the Allied stuff for a PBEM game then fine .. but why WHY do so many wannabe nazi tank drivers want to reduce the GAME to a arcade game for Nazis''.. And why the Heck does Matrix listen to them? All Sides like What If's and Trying out their neat toys .. Like I said How about a what if game called "What if SPWAW inculded all the neat Allied stuff" ..
Nazi players want to do it their way .. fine well and good but the Allied players would like the same concideration. Make the Tank Panic / Nonarrival feature a switch like rarity , or you can just turn off Allied Air in preferences.

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 49
- 6/29/2003 2:24:07 AM   
Voriax

 

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Ammo, if we forget aircrafts what Allied neat stuff is missing? I have no problems in bringing them in.

Voriax

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Post #: 50
Realism - 6/29/2003 2:37:10 AM   
mogami


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Hi, I prefer to fight my battles under the actual conditions.
It does slow the game down abit when before each turn you are shelled for 30 minutes.
I wish Tankhead was still around. We once fought a online battle.
I was Germany late 44. He was Canada. His 12k points versus my 5k. I had no Tigers (just a very few Mk-III and IV and my infantry was VG (with a FJ company)

The highlight of the battle for me was when the few unshattered German units made a counter thrust against his flanks (he drove through my lines on a narrow front and I massed behind the breakthrough) Once I got close enough he had to stop using his arty (or do more damage to his units then mine)

The battle lasted all night for over a week. It ended a draw and I was very happy. It seemed very real to me to have to deal with the air and over whelming numbers. I had to weigh when to commmit my reserve (half of which went up in smoke to enemy arty/air while still a long way from battle)

You can not "balance" SPWaW. One side or the other is cheated.
The system of assigning value by way of armor and gun and ignoring production numbers is greatly in favor of the Germans.
Even using the rarity does not help since the axis still pays a cheap price for the avaialble units and then simply buys others when they are not permitted to buy more of one type.
I never understand why T-34 go red.

In the actual war a single Tiger will defeat a single enemy Tank of any type. However when presented with 5 or more all at once it loses. (The 5 make up for the lower crew rating)

Only fighting battles where your 1 Tiger has to face 1 enemy tank is not balanced, nor is it real. It's a fantasy. Allowing your opponent several k worth of units that can't hurt you is not balance. (It stacks the VP in your favor even more)

I enjoy playing every nation in SPWaW. I am not afraid to take any country against any other. (Provided the battle conditions are not messed with) I played Bulgaria in the World Cup. (OK I lost all the battles but my opponenets were surprised it was harder to win then they first assumed. (My error was along with being Bulgaria I used cav and had no AFV)

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Post #: 51
- 6/29/2003 2:49:41 AM   
Charles2222


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Mogami
quote:

Hi, The issue gets even whackier when you move to the Eastern Front. Most players feel the game is flawed beyond repair if they lose a German tank in a battle.


What a factual unbiased observer you are!:rolleyes:

(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 52
- 6/29/2003 2:52:36 AM   
Charles2222


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Mogami:
quote:

Hi, The war in the east became a stug versus soviet armor war.
Most stug production went east while the tanks went west.


Prove it.

quote:

Even then German soldiers prefered to be supported by stugs over Tigers. (The stugs stayed the Tigers always needed to depart for fuel)


Prove that too. In that same precise vein of research, I also found US troops preferred Stuarts to either Easy8's or Pershings, so I guess we ought to respect that and force US players from ebing able to select those! Your claims are becoming more and more ludicrous, the sad thing is you probably think we're stupid enough to believe them. the next thing you'll tell us is the troops preferred to see a Storch (which isn't in the game :p ) over a HE111!

(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 53
bite me - 6/29/2003 3:04:41 AM   
mogami


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I'm not going to debate my personal SPWaW experiances. I have fought too many PBEM/online battles dating back to when we had the East/West Front tourny.
If you can count, go add add up types of AFV on the East Front.
After 1944 you will see the rise of Stug compared to Tank numbers. You have no clue to the amount of research I've done, before making any statment here. If you have differing info post it. Your opinion is of course yours to state but please leave out the snidness. I don't use it in my posts.

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(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 54
- 6/29/2003 3:08:55 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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Voriax .. WP Ammo is missing for all arty and almost all direct fire cannon ( thats a biggie ) , VT fuzing is missing ( thats a real biggie ) , Spotter Planes is Missing( Thats a real biggie ) , Indirect Fire on Support Vehicles like Amtrac's and 75mm Stuart SP Hows in Missing as in Indirect on the Halftrack GMC's with proper ammo in one unit for both Direct and Indirect fire ( not a biggie you can buy either /or Halftrack GMC but not the exact same thing) .. M20 Bazooka;s ( the 3.5 Super Bazooka last 3 months of the war, but not a real biggie ) Realistic Experience Ratings for the US so asuming you agree the basic pricing formula for units is about right the US can buy a reasonablely correct proportion of cheaper but less experience troops early in the war ( thats a Biggie ) .. 9.4 inch Hows ( not a Biggie ) Correct bazooka Ammo ( M1 and M9 Bazzokas are just folding or not folding bazookas) .. the pen difference is in the ammo so post Jan 1944 both should have the higher pen M6A3 ammo as opposed to M6A1 ammo and they should have a WP round . ( some of that has been fixed, but not the WP. ) Drivers in US Vehicles should have M2/ M1 carbines or Thompson/ M3's not pistols , Most AFV and scout jeeps should have a Bazooka ( look at any detailed TO&E .. not a biggie , nit picking on this one I admit it , can be bought seperately , pistols will do in a pinch for drivers ) Tanks should have WP/Smoke for the main gun, Some Shermans should have a 60mm Smoke Mortar that fires thru the loader top hatch ( Platoon Leader tanks for marking for Aircraft ( not a biggie since God's eyes can see the Target, but still nice for screening .. main Gun smoke/WP is critical for proper tactics / disengaement. Portable Truck mounted Smoke Generators for assaults ( not a biggy ) But having about half the ammo in Mortars being WP is a very big biggie) .. And while I am at it , Infared Night scopes for M1 carbines last couple of months of the war. Bangalor Torpedos for mine clearing / obstical clearing.. we didn't have to do it by hand w/ bayo everytime, especially on the assaults , and we did alot of assaluting ..issued to regular infantry units for RAPID mine field breeching. ( IMHO US Assaulting Troops should get a free instant 10 mine, one time 1 shot pop, or 1 level of barbed wire clear shot per squad , just like river crossings have rafts .. ) but thats a whole other issue .. but bangalore Torps are just a issue of ammo to the troops not a whole new unit. Great US Invention to bad nobody else really had such a device purpose built that could clear 50 foot of most anything in a game turn inculding assembly.. Each Man in the Squad carried one 5 foot section and assembled it into a 50 foot long 2 inch metal tube packed with explosives as they slid it onto the mine field or under the wire .. when detonated to cleared a path for the squad ( not for vehicles , just infantry) but a 1 level (10) reduction in mines or wire would be a fair simulation. This is NOT a RARE device .. common issue when breeching was anticipated.
Thats the main stuff .. I'm Happy with Air Power on all sides being somewhat over rated in accuraccy , but I fully support the Gut Check / lower accuracy thing , if it goes that way , with an on off switch

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 55
- 6/29/2003 5:14:37 AM   
werderwayne

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sentry
[B]Its not only air combat thats screwed.FLAK almost never hits anything in the air.I understand if 20mm Flakvirling doesnt pick off
PE-2 (dive bomber) but these guns were really deadly against low-level fighter-bombers (P-39,Typhoon,IL-2,Lagg-3).
It is very rare,when flak manages to shoot down one plane during the battle and there are about 6-8 planes who decimate my infantry with 50kg bombs :mad: . Big caliber flaks have basically same ratio against air target,but atleast i can use them as last minute help against armor. [/B][/QUOTE]

I noticed the same thing. I thought that it was impossible to KO an enemy plane, so I made a scenario in which I bought nothing but AA and a few tanks. With 20 or more 37mm, 20mm and 88mm AA guns all clustered in a small valley, I managed to KO a few P-51's. Up until then, I thought that it couldn't be done.

-WW

(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 56
- 6/29/2003 6:17:18 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
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Mogami:
quote:

After 1944 you will see the rise of Stug compared to Tank numbers. You have no clue to the amount of research I've done, before making any statment here.


Oh really? I can research your words in this thread alone and show you changing your tune already. You didn't say "RISE" of stug numbers compared to tanks (general production numbers would tell you that), but you said, which is a whole other subject indicating stugs were going east, while the tanks that were east were sent west (which could only be even close to true during the Buldge)
quote:

Most stug production went east while the tanks went west.


You're still more than welcome to prove that most of the stugs went east, while the tanks of the east went west. Or....did you speak poorly then?

quote:

You have no clue to the amount of research I've done, before making any statment here.
Neither do you, I.

quote:

Your opinion is of course yours to state but please leave out the snidness. I don't use it in my posts.


Yeah, well try that same post out for size:
quote:

If you can count, go add add up types of AFV on the East Front.


You snide? Never. Your judgement obviously is quite clouded. A pity.



werderwayne:
quote:

I noticed the same thing. I thought that it was impossible to KO an enemy plane, so I made a scenario in which I bought nothing but AA and a few tanks. With 20 or more 37mm, 20mm and 88mm AA guns all clustered in a small valley, I managed to KO a few P-51's. Up until then, I thought that it couldn't be done.


I WOULDN'T know this from experience, but I have heard the story is quite different regarding running up against those AFV-mounted .50cal US AAMG's. I wonder why that may be? Pretty hilarious that you buy virtually an entire army of things, definitely stationary when firing, and come up with such a poor result.

(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 57
Production - 6/29/2003 7:29:39 AM   
mogami


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Hi, You are reading more into a simple sentence. Stug production went east tanks went west. (as in tank production not transfering tanks off eastern front.) This would have been more clear if you had read the thread. (This was the second time I said this.

If you can count is not snide. You state you don't trust me I say go count them your self. If you examine Panzer Regt you will observe one or more Bn being replaced by Stug. If you check all Panzer and Panzer Grn Div you will find a number that on June 6 1944 have Panzer Regt with 0 tanks (stugs instead)

The Germans were not adding stugs they were using them in place of tanks.

Even some west front formations had this change. But it is hard to find one east front Panzer div that does not have stugs (formerly reserved for PZGr Div) replacing tanks in the div Panzer Rgt.

Although total numbers of tanks is on the rise, the total on the east front remains fairly stable. The number of stugs however continues to rise. I conclude the stug was gaining in importance on the eastern front while the tank was being held in the west.

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Post #: 58
Air Power - 6/29/2003 8:32:06 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Basically the issue is simple. The effect of air power (tactical) during the war and as represented in the game.
If you want to overlook it then several problems arise. First the Germans did not achieve their success without it. And then they lost the ground war because at some point prior they had already lost the air war.

Air had a profound effect on the outcome of battles from start to finish. Place the Allied 1944 air power in France 1940 and you get a German defeat. The rise of Soviet success parallels exactly the decline of the Luftwaffe and the rise of the Red Air Force.
If you remove the primary killer of axis AFV from the game you unbalance it in favor of the Axis. Just as if you deny the German player in 1939 or 1940 air units you make his success much more difficult (and in some cases impossible)
Try to conduct a river crossing against Poles or French without German air units (and because in the actual battles the Luftwaffe was the artillery remove German ob arty. German arty could not keep up with the forward movement of the front. The Luftwaffe not only became the arty it was the primary means of destroying the enemy arty that otherwise would have been employed)
(The loop hole in SPWaW that allows early German success. They can substitute one for the other, but they also limit allied arty. So they get something they did not have and remove or limit 2 of the most important allied weapons.

Balance is not altering facts to where one side can turn historic defeat into victory. Balance is when the outcome is decided by player tactics and battlefield knowledge not material present on map turn 1. To achieve balance you need to select missions that reflect the historic postures of each side. Germans will be defending mostly but to let them also conduct attacks you change the weather or make it a night battle. They still have to deal with enemy arty but the reduced visibility renders it somewhat ineffective. In exchange the allies do not have to deal with the long ranges of the German armor and AT guns.
Both players have to adapt and be original in their conduct of the battle. The battle retains it's realism in that these are conditions both sides faced during the conflict.

Asking for a set up with equal points, on a bright sunny day with limited OB arty and no air is not trying to balance the game. (It's stacking the deck)

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Post #: 59
- 6/29/2003 9:15:00 AM   
werderwayne

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmmoSgt
[B]Voriax .. WP Ammo is missing for all arty and almost all direct fire cannon ( thats a biggie ) , VT fuzing is missing ( thats a real biggie ) , "

The Flak 88 had it also.

"Spotter Planes is Missing( Thats a real biggie ) "

Agreed, so is misidentifying ground targets (unless it is pre-programmed in the scenario), and the inability of planes to see through woods and smoke is also missing.

"Indirect Fire on Support Vehicles like Amtrac's and 75mm Stuart SP Hows in Missing as in Indirect on the Halftrack GMC's with proper ammo in one unit for both Direct and Indirect fire ( not a biggie you can buy either /or Halftrack GMC but not the exact same thing) .. M20 Bazooka;s ( the 3.5 Super Bazooka last 3 months of the war, but not a real biggie )"

But the Bazooka is way too effective and, as far as I can tell, can go right through spaced armor. The US tested the Bazooka and the Panzerschreck back-to-back and found the Panzerschreck superior in every category except weight. Also, the heat rounds (it didn't mention HE rounds...I didn't know that they existed) would not explode if the target was missed and the round hit the ground. The PS rounds would ususally explode upon hitting the ground after a miss. The PS was also more accurate at all tested ranges, penetrated more and did more behind-armor damage.


"Realistic Experience Ratings for the US so asuming you agree the basic pricing formula for units is about right the US can buy a reasonablely correct proportion of cheaper but less experience troops early in the war ( thats a Biggie )

agreed.

.. 9.4 inch Hows ( not a Biggie ) Correct bazooka Ammo ( M1 and M9 Bazzokas are just folding or not folding bazookas) .. the pen difference is in the ammo so post Jan 1944 both should have the higher pen M6A3 ammo as opposed to M6A1 ammo and they should have a WP round . ( some of that has been fixed, but not the WP. ) Drivers in US Vehicles should have M2/ M1 carbines or Thompson/ M3's not pistols ,"

German AT gun crews (after 41, 42?) usually had MG's to protect the gun.

"Most AFV and scout jeeps should have a Bazooka ( look at any detailed TO&E .. not a biggie , nit picking on this one I admit it , can be bought seperately , pistols will do in a pinch for drivers ) Tanks should have WP/Smoke for the main gun, Some Shermans should have a 60mm Smoke Mortar that fires thru the loader top hatch ( Platoon Leader tanks for marking for Aircraft ( not a biggie since God's eyes can see the Target, but still nice for screening"

Speaking of seeing...German binoculars were MUCH better than US versions, especially in low-light conditions, so stationary, open units should sight better than allied units.

"...main Gun smoke/WP is critical for proper tactics / disengaement. Portable Truck mounted Smoke Generators for assaults ( not a biggy ) But having about half the ammo in Mortars being WP is a very big biggie) .. And while I am at it , Infared Night scopes for M1 carbines last couple of months of the war. "

Night scopes on Panthers?

"Bangalor Torpedos for mine clearing / obstical clearing.. we didn't have to do it by hand w/ bayo everytime, especially on the assaults , and we did alot of assaluting ..issued to regular infantry units for RAPID mine field breeching. ( IMHO US Assaulting Troops should get a free instant 10 mine, one time 1 shot pop, or 1 level of barbed wire clear shot per squad , just like river crossings have rafts .. ) but thats a whole other issue .. but bangalore Torps are just a issue of ammo to the troops not a whole new unit. Great US Invention to bad nobody else really had such a device purpose built that could clear 50 foot of most anything in a game turn inculding assembly.. Each Man in the Squad carried one 5 foot section and assembled it into a 50 foot long 2 inch metal tube packed with explosives as they slid it onto the mine field or under the wire .. when detonated to cleared a path for the squad ( not for vehicles , just infantry) but a 1 level (10) reduction in mines or wire would be a fair simulation. This is NOT a RARE device .. common issue when breeching was anticipated. "

Are there any mine-clearing M4's in SPWAW?

Thats the main stuff .. I'm Happy with Air Power on all sides being somewhat over rated in accuraccy , but I fully support the Gut Check / lower accuracy thing , if it goes that way , with an on off switch [/B][/QUOTE]

I always thought that air intradiction occurred a bit farther from the actual battles...kept accidental shooting of your own side to a minimum.

I agree that BOTH sides need some additions. HOWEVER, I am really impressed with all the stuff each side DOES have.

-WW

(in reply to werderwayne)
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