Slitherine

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If you doubt my assertion then you don’t understand the depths and complexities of chapter A-D let alone E, F and G.
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No computer as of today has the logic and reasoning required to play the game. Some humans don’t even qualify, it takes one part OCD, one part geek, one part war gamer and two parts crazy, that is not even to master the game. . . .

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ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think maybe you are confusing programing AI to play ASL with a PC ASL for two humans to play. That is what I desire, a PC ASL or a very close clone that allows to humans to play online. I have no interest in a ASL AI opponent.

I know the ASL rules. The problem is when playing is that not many people do know the rules. So you spend most of the time looking up rules to verify an action or rule an action illegal, rather than playing the game. This limits the ASL appeal to many potential players.

That is where the PC can help. It is programmed to know the rules. So the player is left with actions he can perform and the option to perform illegal ones is simply not available. So the players focus on playing, not rules lawyering.

And wow, the FOW advantages of the PC version would be awesome.

I think ultimately it will happen. Perhaps even a PC version of an ASL like game will emerge that may well even surpass the original ASL. And then the old paper version will gather dust on the bookcase like most of my other surviving boardgames.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I find those insulting. The first one, if they do not agree with what you are stating then they don't understand it? The second one indicates that in order to play decently one must be mentally ill. I would never want to have to be mentally ill just to play a game.

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ORIGINAL: Michael T

Another thing about ASL is the errata. People may not realize you cannot actually buy an ASL rulebook that is up to date. So even to make sure you have the most up to date rules is an issue. You have to sift through literally dozens of pages of errata and spend hours and hours updating your rulebook. So you come across some guy and he says 'but rule so an so says this', but you respond 'well errata bla bla bla says this'. He says 'I was not even aware of that... these rules are brand new'.

The current rulebook is 2nd Edition. They (MMP) have more than enough material for a 3rd Edition. But I don't think a 3rd Edition is even on their radar.

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

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Again, I know that no ASL PC version will be available unless it's produced by the copyright holders, which is MMP (Multi-Man Publications).

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I find those insulting. The first one, if they do not agree with what you are stating then they don't understand it? The second one indicates that in order to play decently one must be mentally ill. I would never want to have to be mentally ill just to play a game.

Zovs:

I think a lot of younger folks get insulted way too easy, they don't have any thick skin and take themselves too serious. Sometimes you just have to chill and roll with the punches and not take things so serious and get all insulted so easily.

You must have never heard of "tongue and check". I never said anything about being mentally ill. No just being crazy as in nuts. Most normal folks don't sit around a few geometric boards pushing cardboard counters around and saying "any prep?" and hearing "yeah, I'll take a 6 down 2 shot on those guys there from these guys". Most of the world will think we are all nuts, crazy going off the rails lol.

Seriously how many normal folks sit around playing computer war games for hours, the rest of the world will say we are nuts.

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I think some people to too sensitive or touchy and the slightest thing makes them feel insulted for no reason or for a incorrectly perceived feeling, especially with forums where you can't hear the inflection and tone of voice nor the sarcasm, humor, wit, jest, pun or even something serious, you can only go by the words on the screen. Sometimes you have to have some tolerance and an open mind to understand someone and sometimes one nationality or region says one thing that is perceived one way and in other region or country it's another.

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ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I was a big fan of Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader, along with Kampfgruppe and Battlegroup [C64!], and while I know Squad Leader was a step above those I never got into it. But nobody has mentioned Campaign Series yet, and I thought that game had a good reputation and was similar in scale to PB and PL. It had been limited to the Middle East and it is tactical, so that might keep it away from a nomination here, but recently it is moving into Vietnam and WWII.

So nobody thinks the Campaign Series is good enough to be best ?

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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I think some people to too sensitive or touchy and the slightest thing makes them feel insulted for no reason or for a incorrectly perceived feeling, especially with forums where you can't hear the inflection and tone of voice nor the sarcasm, humor, wit, jest, pun or even something serious, you can only go by the words on the screen. Sometimes you have to have some tolerance and an open mind to understand someone and sometimes one nationality or region says one thing that is perceived one way and in other region or country it's another.

As far as I know, you have no knowledge of my nationality or region, nor even what language I prefer to utilize. That is why it is best to state what you mean and mean what you state. If you want to change the meaning you can use emojis to get that part of the message across to someone.

As far as the best wargame, CHESS for its longevity.

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ORIGINAL: Michael T

Another thing about ASL is the errata. People may not realize you cannot actually buy an ASL rulebook that is up to date. So even to make sure you have the most up to date rules is an issue. You have to sift through literally dozens of pages of errata and spend hours and hours updating your rulebook. So you come across some guy and he says 'but rule so an so says this', but you respond 'well errata bla bla bla says this'. He says 'I was not even aware of that... these rules are brand new'.

The current rulebook is 2nd Edition. They (MMP) have more than enough material for a 3rd Edition. But I don't think a 3rd Edition is even on their radar.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You know nothing about my age, so what do you mean by younger folks? BTW, in the Soviet Union, if you thought too differently than what was expected of you, you were considered mentally ill. What you posted appeared to be the same type of thinking. So why should I have to cool down and allow myself to be attacked?

I have never heard of "tongue in check" but I have heard of tongue in cheek. That can also lead to biting ones tongue.

You do not know my gaming history, nor how much I play. If you want to talk about a serious war game, talk about CHESS where there is a world championship even.

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ORIGINAL: Michael T

I want a PC *very much like ASL* game of squad based WWII combat that has similar depth and complexity while adding the improvements to play a PC can offer.
I gain no enjoyment from debating rules hour after hour. I accept some ASLer's do. I avoid those types. I want to play the game and demonstrate tactical skill or be shown tactical skill. I have no desire to engage in rules lawyering battles with anyone.

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By the way, RangerJoe, I congratulate you about your avatar. It’s a magnificent photograph of the famous and very pretty Roza Yegórovna Šánina.

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ORIGINAL: asl3d
The games similar to ASL for PC that I know are:

1.- Heroes of Stalingrad (I myself have a mod published on this game: Heroes and Leaders mod)

2.- Tigers on the Hunt

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You have to do “fair play” against AI.

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I hope to never play a boardgame again,

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ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I was a big fan of Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader, along with Kampfgruppe and Battlegroup [C64!], and while I know Squad Leader was a step above those I never got into it. But nobody has mentioned Campaign Series yet, and I thought that game had a good reputation and was similar in scale to PB and PL. It had been limited to the Middle East and it is tactical, so that might keep it away from a nomination here, but recently it is moving into Vietnam and WWII.

So nobody thinks the Campaign Series is good enough to be best ?

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ORIGINAL: Zovs

To me chess is just checkers with some chrome.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Thank you. That is why I used her picture as my avatar.

Of course, against any AI you can mess it up by doing something not programmed. But if you had a computer that could remember and use that in the future, what might have been easy would then become harder and harder.

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ORIGINAL: JReb

How far can the Unity and Archon engines be developed? Isn't that the limiting factor? Is a new type of engine required to make a quantum leap to the next generation of games?

I am anxiously waiting for the release of Steel Tigers to see if they can even make a quality WW2 tactical game. It must be light years better than battle academy and if not squad level units then no larger than company level.

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ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

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You have to do “fair play” against AI.

THis taken from a nice post back there at #163. I just wanted to clarify something that maybe some times gets overlooked, that there is no 'AI' in our games. We are not playing against any form of an Artificial Intelligence, we are playing against a Programmed Opponent [PO]. That is a guy programming in reactions to your moves, as they did with chess. Chess is a complex game, but it only has 64 hexes and 32 pieces. What does your game have? And how about rules, lol!

A little more - I am a big solitaire player [and I don't misuse that term to include hotseat]. The two games that I have programmed opponents for are Strategic Command 3 and Operational Art of War. Both of them use a coded PO for basic operations, and another layer for more specific operations. I bring this up so that when someone says something like 'the AI sucks in game xx', maybe they will think a little, because the AI certainly doesn't suck because there isn't one!

And a little more - programming a PO takes a lot of effort, in SC3 there are many scripts involved, in TOAW there are many Objectives that need plotting [and Events can play a part also]. So while I am a firm believer in solitaire play and if a game doesn't support it then it isn't a game at all [what do we have a computer for, anyway?] we can't expect 'good AI's' [because there aren't any! What we can expect are games like SC3 and TOAW where we the users have the opportunity to enhance the PO's.