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- 7/8/2003 1:55:02 AM   
dwesolick


Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by AbsntMndedProf
[B]Getting away from 20th Century war films, a realy bad movie, the only bad one John Wayne did that I know of, the 1980 release, [I]The Conqueror[/I] with the Duke as Genghis Khan. I'm sorry, but someone in casting blew it with this one. The Duke as Genghis Kahn works about as well as Martin Sheen as Robert E. Lee in [I]Gettysburg[/I]. :rolleyes: :D

[/B][/QUOTE]


Didn't John Wayne die in 1979?:confused:

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Post #: 91
- 7/8/2003 2:34:47 AM   
jnier


Posts: 402
Joined: 2/18/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwesolick
[B]I avoid Nicholas Cage movies like the plague. The only one I've seen that I thought was good (great actually) was RAISING ARIZONA. He plays a "doofus" superbly, but as for an action hero............:rolleyes [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree about Nicholas Cage the action hero...he really stinks. But he made several good movies (in addition to Raising Arizona) before he sold out and started making crap like Windtalkers and Face Off

Wild at Heart
Moonstruck
Leaving Las Vegas

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Post #: 92
- 7/8/2003 2:43:03 AM   
Raindog101


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/17/2002
From: Hole-in-the-Wall
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwesolick
[B]Didn't John Wayne die in 1979?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

The AbsntMndedProf "forgot" that the film was released in 1955 or 56.

The film was made near a radio-active old nuclear test site in Utah, and most of the cast and crew died of cancer.

The Duke was horribly mis-cast and has him uttering one of the most preposterous lines in moviedom:

"Yer beau-ti-full in yer wrath!

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Post #: 93
I am Soooo Misunderstood! - 7/8/2003 5:24:22 AM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		By saying 'getting away from 20th Century war films', I meant away from films with a 20th Century war subject, not when the film was made. I hope that clears things up. :cool: :D

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 94
- 7/8/2003 5:54:07 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I have myself found, that it is easier in a lot of cases to make a good film if the setting is actually pre 20th century, or at least pre 1950.

So much of what is post 1950 is riddled with all that makes films annoying.

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Post #: 95
- 7/8/2003 6:28:56 AM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I'd like to add one film classic and one film I'd like to see made:

[I]Seargent York[/I] with Gary Cooper, and a film bio-pic of the life of Ted Williams. He was a great baseball player who gave up what arguably would have been his best years in the game to serve his country as a Marine fighter pilot. I forget who said it, but the best quote I've seen about the Splendid Splinter is "He was the man that John Wayne played in the movies.".

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 96
- 7/8/2003 12:47:39 PM   
Mad Cow


Posts: 3374
Joined: 7/31/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]
I must say, with Saving Private Ryan, what I had to like the most was the Omaha Beach scene in the opening. Yes the rest of the film tended to be a bit less quality than the opener. But I will not forget the way the opener stunned and even horrified the audience.
I don't often get to see idiotic audiences that really DON'T know the true horrors of war, shown what real death dealt out indiscriminantly and violently really looks like.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I never looked at war quite the same after I saw that scene.

I just watched all of SPR the other night after I gave the rest of the movie a thumbs down. It was better than I remembered. The scenery was excellent most of the action was great, but I didn't get into much of the airborne actors as much as I did the Ranger squad. Ryan hardly comes across as being worth the sacrifice of all those Rangers. But its an excellent story, and I take back most of what I said about it earlier.

The Beach scene, though, is among the finest moments of film making I have ever seen.

One thing that always bothered me, why on earth would US Army Rangers allow an SS soldier to just walk away like that? It was like something out of the American Civil War when Confederates would parole Union prisoners and just take their word that they would be going home and not rejoining their own troops.

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Post #: 97
- 7/8/2003 7:52:20 PM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Two things about [I]Saving Private Ryan[/I] that make me scratch my head:

1. During the final scenes, Capt. John Miller, played by Tom Hanks, runs up to the German tank and puts his SMG's barrel through the driver's view slot and shoots up the inside of the tank. In close combat, wouldn't the German tank driver have his view port closed and be looking through a periscope-like optical device to prevent just such a thing from happening?

2. I can't recall the German tank firing its MGs at all. That just seems silly!:rolleyes:

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 98
- 7/8/2003 7:57:10 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Mad Cow war brings out weird behaviour and even more weird possibilities rather easily.

The guy that becomes a hero for just taking the risk and storming the machinegun nest thus saving the squad, might be back home a genuine jerk that would not hesitate to rob you in a dark alley..

Getting into a knife fight, and trying to kill a man, only to beg for mercy when the fight conditions worsen and the tables turn, just illustrates we all react in some cases unexpectedly under stress. One moment cruel killer, the next begging for our lives as if we had not just tried to kill the other person.

Fatigue, strain, stress, blood lust, conditioning all do a lot of things to our minds that we can rarely see objectively. And it often does a lot of hidden damage too.

I am for instance greatly coloured in my actions by knowledge, that deep down, I don't really give a hoot about killing.
And that is coupled by a very deeply buried very intense anger. Which I am lucky has never gotten me into trouble.
But I yet still have no reason to know what my behaviour would be like subjected to the horrors of war.

Ryan (as I hope we all know) was a last son issue. The man did NOT want to be taken from his buddies. He did NOT want to shirk what he saw as his duties to them.
But the army doesn't allow whole families to be killed in duty period.
And orders are orders. And the order was go get this individual and bring that individual out of combat.

On the surface, one could say, why is he special. Ask his mother.

Because if no one is ever capable of being sufficiently special, then most of the reasons we freedom loving nations go to war for, have any point eh.

Life has to be precious before you can fret over losing it.

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Post #: 99
- 7/8/2003 8:00:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Prof, the view port being open could be a "stupid things happen" illustration actually eh.

Germans are allowed to screw up just like the rest of us hehe.

As for MG, they might have been out of ammo. Heaven knows, I have run out of it myself at the wrong moments :).

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Post #: 100
- 7/8/2003 9:06:51 PM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Les the Sarge 9-1 posted:

[QUOTE]Germans are allowed to screw up just like the rest of us hehe.[/QUOTE]

What??? A Kat driver screw up? Shame on you for even suggesting it! :D:D:D


[QUOTE]As for MG, they might have been out of ammo. Heaven knows, I have run out of it myself at the wrong moments .[/QUOTE]

True, but all of them, all at once? I think, rather, that the vehicle used in the film had MGs that had been spiked with lead plugs, so they could not be fired. Just a guess.

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 101
- 7/9/2003 11:41:25 AM   
Mad Cow


Posts: 3374
Joined: 7/31/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Mad Cow war brings out weird behaviour and even more weird possibilities rather easily.

The guy that becomes a hero for just taking the risk and storming the machinegun nest thus saving the squad, might be back home a genuine jerk that would not hesitate to rob you in a dark alley..

Getting into a knife fight, and trying to kill a man, only to beg for mercy when the fight conditions worsen and the tables turn, just illustrates we all react in some cases unexpectedly under stress. One moment cruel killer, the next begging for our lives as if we had not just tried to kill the other person.

Fatigue, strain, stress, blood lust, conditioning all do a lot of things to our minds that we can rarely see objectively. And it often does a lot of hidden damage too.

I am for instance greatly coloured in my actions by knowledge, that deep down, I don't really give a hoot about killing.
And that is coupled by a very deeply buried very intense anger. Which I am lucky has never gotten me into trouble.
But I yet still have no reason to know what my behaviour would be like subjected to the horrors of war.

Ryan (as I hope we all know) was a last son issue. The man did NOT want to be taken from his buddies. He did NOT want to shirk what he saw as his duties to them.
But the army doesn't allow whole families to be killed in duty period.
And orders are orders. And the order was go get this individual and bring that individual out of combat.

On the surface, one could say, why is he special. Ask his mother.

Because if no one is ever capable of being sufficiently special, then most of the reasons we freedom loving nations go to war for, have any point eh.

Life has to be precious before you can fret over losing it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Good post. But I think you misunderstood me. I meant that the actor who played James Ryan (Matt Damon) did not bring his character to life for me, which made me wonder why he was worth saving (I know why he was being saved and why it was a noble cause (last son). The story of the last time he saw his brothers was touching, but overall, he did a poor job acting. Most of the people who got airborne rolls did a pretty bad job (Ted Danson, the chubby guy from Private Parts, etc). However, their rolls were pretty much secondary to the story (except for Ryan, of course.) I do think that everyone who played the Rangers (and the clerk they brought along to translate) did an excellent job in the film.

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Post #: 102
- 7/12/2003 1:13:13 AM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		On the lighter side, [I]The Secret of Santa Vittoria[/I] with Anthony Quinn as the town drunk who becomes Santa Vittoria's reluctant leader in a plot to hide the town's wine from the retreating Germans, is a very funny and poignant movie, IMHO.

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 103
- 7/12/2003 1:44:55 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		My only complaint with SPR might have been similar, the actors might have been able to do a bit more with their parts in some cases.

Oh well, in my opinion, nothing is ever as good as the old epics with are favourite old classic actors.

I just don't find it easy hating a John Wayne film, but I could care less about some of the newer films, because I don't really have any attachment to the newer actors.

I hear people saying things like Sean Penn, and good acting together in the same sentence, and I have to be sure I am not driniking something lest I start choking.

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Post #: 104
- 7/12/2003 1:53:03 AM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Les the Sarge 9-1 posted:

[QUOTE]I just don't find it easy hating a John Wayne film, but I could care less about some of the newer films, because I don't really have any attachment to the newer actors.[/QUOTE]

Whenever a John Wayne movie makes it onto the small screen, I cancel everything, lay in a supply of popcorn and other munchies and shut the phone's ringer off! :)

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 105
Little-known war film - 7/14/2003 9:16:07 PM   
LyleGorch

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/22/2002
From: NYC (Queens)
Status: offline 		Friends,

One of the best I've seen is "The Winter War." It's a Finnish film from the early 80's (I believe) that depicts the Soviet Invasion of '39 and the heroic efforts of the Finnish Army in holding the line against the Red Army. It's very realistic, and it gets to the combat fairly quickly. The tanks and equipment are authentic, and you get a real sense of the odds the Finns were up against. The copy I have is a little grainy, but I didn't notice it after five minutes or so.

It's available from the Belle and Blade catalogue -- along with hundreds of other war films.

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Post #: 106
- 7/15/2003 7:29:06 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		Best is a Tie: Saving Private Ryan and the Band of Brothers Series.

Worst is a Tie and the opposite end: A Thin Red Line was total garbage from start to finish. The editing was completely crap. Watch closely and you'll see a guy yell retreat as they are attaking a bunker and when the scene cuts to the next one they are charging it and win. What happens between retreat and the final assault is a mystery. At least in the movie theatre it was. I don't know if they fixed it for the DVD as I will not waste my money renting it.
Pearl Harbor at least had good action sequences and good special effects, but it suffers from the same thing that alot of war movies suffer from, the need to lead the audience to believe every soldier, airman and sailor in WW2 was part of a love triangle (see Enemy at the Gates). And on top of that two airman fight from the ground, get off the ground to shoot down Japanese planes while causing others to crash with their aerial acrobatics, then land to help in the harbor, and to finish off their busy day they give blood.

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Post #: 107
- 7/22/2003 2:58:36 AM   
Alex Fiedler


Posts: 507
Joined: 7/22/2003
From: Sydney
Status: offline 		Yes, I agree.
Band Of Brothers was amazing. Although I wasnt too keen on episodes 8 & 9. 10 was only good at the very end where it showed what happened to everyone.

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Post #: 108
- 7/22/2003 4:21:39 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Best:Band of brothers, stalingrad, iron cross, unknown soldier (finnish).

Worst:Hamburger hill, We were soldiers, green berets, etc.

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Post #: 109
- 7/22/2003 8:20:12 AM   
Maliki


Posts: 2217
Joined: 12/25/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zakhal
[B]Best:Band of brothers, stalingrad, iron cross, unknown soldier (finnish).

Worst:Hamburger hill, We were soldiers, green berets, etc. [/B][/QUOTE]

What was so bad about Hamburger Hill?From some of the things i have read it is one of the more accurate films depicting combat in Vietnam,or at least that battle.

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Post #: 110
- 7/22/2003 8:26:17 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		I didnt like teh make up on the soldiers eyes. He looked like a member from a boy band. Other than that, the movie really felt like a sub-standard. It was partly ridiclous and boring. The "gross" scenes didnt fit the movie. They felt like out of place.

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Post #: 111
Best/Worst War Movie - 7/22/2003 9:08:22 AM   
ShermanM4


Posts: 298
Joined: 7/14/2003
Status: offline 		I loved Gettysburg. I love Patton, even though it suffers several historical errors. Band of Brothers I thought was good.

[QUOTE]Worst:Hamburger hill, We were soldiers, green berets, etc.[/QUOTE]

I notice those are all Vietnam era films. What wasnt to like about We Were Soldiers?

Worst I thought and I have to agree was Battle of the Bulge. Spain looks nothing like Belgium in the dead of winter. Among other horrible historical inaccuricies. The other one I couldnt stand was Patriot, awful story all the way around. Even the Battle of Cowpens might have been done better, although it was the most interesting part of the entire film.

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Post #: 112
- 7/22/2003 9:42:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I think it can be said, film makers are artists in every sense of the word.

You can't just grab some famous actors, and a normally good setting, and expect a classic to just fall in your lap.

But sometimes it really IS the actor(s) in a film that make the difference.

I thought The Green Berets was good, but without John Wayne in it, I suppose I could care less for it.

I have seen a few Vietnam epics that were good, but they are few. I guess that conflict just doesn't "do it" for me.

84 Charlie MoPic was good. Almost never hear it mentioned in comments though.

Good Morning Vietnam was great I think. But I have seen people slag it. It's the only film though, that has ever made me "feel" the insanity of modern war.

I like Patton, but again George C Scott made that film come alive. The dumb tanks were no big deal.
I have seen cheesy early films with bad choices for tanks that didn't cut it, but you can't just drive tanks around, and call it a war movie.

They were lucky in Cross of Iron. T-34s are not so hard to find.
But the director was bang on with how it was made. He made a gritty movie, and he picked the right actors.

Soooo many films come out, and they can have great actors in them, but the moment they start with the big ball of fire explosions, the movie is written out of my "great war movies" lists.
I will forgive em for not being able to find actual WW2 tanks, but bad special effects are grossly inexcusable.

Some films are classics simply because they are. Kelly's heroes was knee deep in first rate actors. The plot was neat, and it was well done. Having a wild west shoot out between three men vs a Tiger is of course idiotic, but it didn't hurt the film.
And they actually had the Shermans, and put out the effort to fake the Tigers.

Whether it was made way back, or yesterday, there is basically no excuse for a shabby movie. But some directors are also shabby artists.
I think Windtalkers was a horrible movie, simply because it took a plot that might have been a fine tribute, and they dropped the ball and made it just more hollywood garbage.

If they can make Saving Private Ryan great, then why could they not have done as good a job on Pearl Harbour? Clearly some directors have talent, and some clearly do not.
People I would hope, would expect an epic subject, to be an epic film.

I was sure hoping Pearl Harbour would be like Tora Tora Tora but with all the power of modern film technology.
We were scammed. It was just some jerks idea of a war romance with a battle scene that might as well have been toned done to avoid unnecessary expense.
I would never attempt to make a war movie a "war movie" if half of the film was to be a romance setting.
Romance films are ok, but they should either be a romance or a war movie.

They tried for both, and it was a wasted effort.

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Post #: 113
Re: Best/Worst War Movie - 7/22/2003 9:52:53 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ShermanM4
[B] What wasnt to like about We Were Soldiers?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Too much "jeesustelua" (acting like jesus christ), long boring homefront scenes and way too much crying. (that feels totally fake, doesnt fit the scene)

Also there was clearly somthing wrong (unreal) about the battles. Like the alone vientnamese suicide charging with his bayonet instead of just shooting (even if having a very good opportunity)

Also just like the hamburger hill, the "gross" scenes didnt fit the movie. (though there was som nice explosions)

In short, it was "embarrassing" to watch.

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Post #: 114
Re: Little-known war film - 7/22/2003 4:29:36 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by LyleGorch
[B]Friends,

One of the best I've seen is "The Winter War." It's a Finnish film from the early 80's (I believe) that depicts the Soviet Invasion of '39 and the heroic efforts of the Finnish Army in holding the line against the Red Army. It's very realistic, and it gets to the combat fairly quickly. The tanks and equipment are authentic, and you get a real sense of the odds the Finns were up against. The copy I have is a little grainy, but I didn't notice it after five minutes or so.

It's available from the Belle and Blade catalogue -- along with hundreds of other war films. [/B][/QUOTE]

It's from 1989, otherwise you are quite correct. The original title is "Talvisota" if you're looking for it online and want more hits. :)

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Post #: 115
Re: Best/Worst War Movie - 7/22/2003 9:46:51 PM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Atoka, TN
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ShermanM4
Worst I thought and I have to agree was Battle of the Bulge. Spain looks nothing like Belgium in the dead of winter. Among other horrible historical inaccuricies. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's not even mentioning that at the start of the movie there is snow EVERYWHERE and during the final tank battle, where's the snow? It looked like desert warfare or something. No snow, no mud and muck, no nothing. Like this HUGE blizzard just stopped and spontaneously dried up!!! And the fact that they believed that rolling the fuel drums BS to stop the tanks was even worse. If you're gonna make a war movie, get the facts straight!

I admit as a kid I was always real partial to Midway. It was the first movie I remember going to see at the theater. Me and Dad went, and I've been hooked on naval history ever since!

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Post #: 116
- 7/22/2003 11:57:45 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		This one is sure to be a favorite (when it is released in a few years): [URL=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=797&ncid=799&e=2&u=/eo/20030721/en_tv_eo/12189]Hanks & Spielberg to do Pacific Theater[/URL]

I can't wait!:)

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Post #: 117
- 7/23/2003 3:47:07 PM   
BrubakerII


Posts: 538
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Adelaide Australia
Status: offline 		Though it will no doubt be fascinating to watch, I shuddered when I read that it would not be based on a historical story, but this time be a 'original work' :rolleyes: I think that is how many of the warfilms of the 50's originated ;) wasn't it?

Brubaker

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Post #: 118
- 7/23/2003 11:28:27 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I have to think they will be creating a "composite" company to follow that will be recreating various accounts of action in the Pacific Theater that several different companies actually went through. Hanks and Spielberg are heavy into creating "real" stories. They did a miniseries on the US space program in the 1960s that was very "real" by all accounts, IIRC.

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Post #: 119
- 7/23/2003 11:43:10 PM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Another good film is a little known 1989 chestnut called 'The Siege of Firebase Gloria' with R. Lee Ermey:

IMDB info on it at:

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0098328

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 120
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