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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's biggest tank battle

 
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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 6:18:56 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Some call it a waste, but I still say that the Boston Tea Party was well worth it,

But I have to admit that I am a bit perplexed on why Napoleon was brought up in a talk about Russian reliving the battle of Kursk.

Seems Capitaine was or is offended by Napoleon's character but I forgot how he was brought into that fateful July day in 1943 when he had been dead for almost 122 years.

Also all this vitriol and nonsense from TulliusDetritus is disturbing.

Maybe the US needed bananas and coconuts from Peru and Chile? Or maybe they were jealous of The Brazilian Expeditionary Force or FEB (Portuguese: Força Expedicionária Brasileira; FEB)?

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Post #: 151
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 6:31:03 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

You're one of the most nationally partisan people on this board, Warspite. If you can't understand my points, coming from a lawyer, the problem is with you my friend. You're just throwing things out there to divert the real charges, and I typically have no interest in further debate with someone who does that.
warspite1

a) which proves you either can't read/understand or don't want to know the truth. I have no reason to believe its the former and that just leaves the latter. One can't have a proper understanding of history and be overly partisan - and the fact you think so says more about your own shortcomings than it does mine. I repeat again, a group of respected scientists prove the truth about HMS Queen Mary - and you refuse to entertain it on the grounds those scientist are working at a British university - you didn't even enquire as to their nationality. As I say, you need to look closer to home for shortcomings....

b) What points are there to understand? Are you serious? You have accused me of citing 'evidence' I haven't presented as evidence to prove something I never sought to prove. Re-read the posts and try and understand. You keep telling everyone you're are a lawyer - presumably this shouldn't be too difficult for you?

c) I am throwing nothing 'out there'. What charges? Stop talking in riddles.

d) But you don't debate, you simply throw mindless comments around such as 'the British' all think as one person, all 'British' have one view (bad) of Napoleon. Believe me, you stating you have no interest in debating further is not something I will lose sleep over. Conversing with someone who disgustingly mis-represents what I say is something I can do without.


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Post #: 152
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 7:58:55 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Some call it a waste, but I still say that the Boston Tea Party was well worth it,

But I have to admit that I am a bit perplexed on why Napoleon was brought up in a talk about Russian reliving the battle of Kursk.

Seems Capitaine was or is offended by Napoleon's character but I forgot how he was brought into that fateful July day in 1943 when he had been dead for almost 122 years.

Also all this vitriol and nonsense from TulliusDetritus is disturbing.

Maybe the US needed bananas and coconuts from Peru and Chile? Or maybe they were jealous of The Brazilian Expeditionary Force or FEB (Portuguese: Força Expedicionária Brasileira; FEB)?


It was the tungsten carbide anti tank bananas and the HE coconuts that the U.S. imported from Central and South America that won the war. Everyone knows that. And Napoleon's ancestors were instrumental in securing the treaty that made the Banana Belt Lend Lease Protocol possible. I thought that was common knowledge.

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Post #: 153
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 8:05:45 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Duh!!!

I failed that class or skipped it! dag gone it...

Oh yes the BBLL....now I recall it...

Kind of like LLMF (or if you were in the cavalry...Lima Lima, Mike, Foxtrot)…

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Post #: 154
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 9:27:48 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be????


Oh! Can I talk smack about some Limey fruit to burnish my objective credentials?

Oops...

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Post #: 155
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 9:36:13 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be????


Oh! Can I talk smack about some Limey fruit to burnish my objective credentials?

Oops...
warspite1

Yes - apparently that is permitted, but you can’t pass judgement on a fellow Yank because all Yanks love all Yanks and so you wouldn’t be objective.... or some old cobblers.


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Post #: 156
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 9:39:17 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		As far as trucks go, the Ostheer had 150 different makes from all the occupied territories. Fox example, PzGroup 3's motorized infantry was largely depended on French trucks, which did very badly on Soviet "roads". There was also the problem of spare parts for those 150 makes. Then, the tires. Gen Georg Thomas, Chief of the War Economy and Armaments Dept commented that they needed 13,000 tons of rubber per month, but German industry could only process 7,300 tons. This is just a small part of the problem.

Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East. Kiev 1941, and Operation Typhoon, all by David Stahel for even more details


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Post #: 157
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 9:52:04 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Even discounting the war loot there was a plethora of German manufactured trucks until Speer narrowed things down.

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Post #: 158
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 10:22:25 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be????


Oh! Can I talk smack about some Limey fruit to burnish my objective credentials?

Oops...
warspite1

Yes - apparently that is permitted, but you can’t pass judgement on a fellow Yank because all Yanks love all Yanks and so you wouldn’t be objective.... or some old cobblers.



Well, truth be told, I love a good yank every now and again. Wait...

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Post #: 159
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 10:44:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be????


Oh! Can I talk smack about some Limey fruit to burnish my objective credentials?

Oops...
warspite1

Yes - apparently that is permitted, but you can’t pass judgement on a fellow Yank because all Yanks love all Yanks and so you wouldn’t be objective.... or some old cobblers.



Well, truth be told, I love a good yank every now and again. Wait...
warspite1

Mods, can we have the above post quarantined and then surgically removed to be filed in the TMI storage facility please?


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Post #: 160
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 10:49:00 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be????


Oh! Can I talk smack about some Limey fruit to burnish my objective credentials?

Oops...
warspite1

Yes - apparently that is permitted, but you can’t pass judgement on a fellow Yank because all Yanks love all Yanks and so you wouldn’t be objective.... or some old cobblers.



Well, truth be told, I love a good yank every now and again. Wait...








Attachment (1)

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

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A: A stick.

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Post #: 161
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 2:21:05 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Yes, make it personal.

How many pigs/hogs in the UK are named Napoleon? If they did not think that he was great, there would be a large number. How many pigs/hogs in France are named Napoleon? probably very few. So on that basis, I would state the the British and the French agree that pigs/hogs should not be named Napoleon to insult his memory.

I think that the British problem with Napoleon at that time was the fear of destroying the status quo in the UK.

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Post #: 162
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 5:43:05 AM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

How many pigs/hogs in the UK are named Napoleon?

warspite1

Not sure I understand the point, but the villain in chief in George Orwell's Animal Farm was a pig named Napoleon


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Post #: 163
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 10:45:31 AM   
Crossroads


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Joined: 7/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

But I have to admit that I am a bit perplexed on why Napoleon was brought up in a talk about Russian reliving the battle of Kursk.



Probably because of these SdKfz 184 "Napoleon" tank destroyers first deplyed there? Or were they nick-named "Wilhelm"? I forget. Some imperial dude, anyway.





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Post #: 164
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 11:20:53 AM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
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Status: offline 		That picture above looks like a paste job, just looks funny

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Post #: 165
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 1:15:02 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		But warspite1, if someone named a pig/hog after you, would you consider it a compliment or an insult? I think that if someone named such a creature after me (aside from it being descriptive to a certain extent) I would consider that an insult. After all, how many police officers like to be referred to as a PIG, even though that is an acronym for Policeman In Government. PIGS can be short for Police In Government System, HOG can be short for Harleys Owner Group. So a motorcycle cop can be PIG on a HOG. But I won't go further on the issue of pork right now.

But I digress, that is a picture of a good German AFV after the battle of Kursk.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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Post #: 166
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 3:48:18 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Pigs are extremely intelligent, resilient and fearless. If threatened they will attack anything regardless of size. And they taste good too. I can't think of many negative things about them. If you want to name a pig after me I would not be insulted.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

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A: A stick.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 167
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 3:58:38 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I can think of a few negative things about pigs:

1) Their body wastes reek!
2) Wild pigs will hunt and eat rats, giving them diseases which can be passed to tame pigs and humans.
3) Pigs will eat carrion which can give diseases which can be passed to us.

But they do taste delicious, especially their belly meat when smoked and then fried. BACON!

How do you call a girl from Iowa? SOOOOIIIIEEEEE!

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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Post #: 168
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 5:23:57 PM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		Pigs don't sweat.

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Post #: 169
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 5:49:05 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Yes, pigs do sweat. They sweat at their noses like felines and canines.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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― Julia Child


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Post #: 170
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 6:41:05 PM   
Yogi the Great


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Status: offline 		Really? How long should we go on?

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Post #: 171
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 6:55:40 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I quit working and I quit smoking cigarettes. Quit too many things and you are known as a quitter. I don't want to be known as a quitter!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 172
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 7:20:37 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Pigs are extremely intelligent, resilient and fearless.
warspite1

Erm......some maybe, but not all....





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 173
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/24/2019 9:24:21 PM   
CGGrognard


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From: USA
Status: offline 		Are we still talking about Kursk? Or have we moved on to Brody?

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Post #: 174
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/25/2019 1:39:22 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CGGrognard

Are we still talking about Kursk? Or have we moved on to Brody?
warspite1

No this fast moving thread is currently debating the One Hundred Acre Wood.


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Post #: 175
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/25/2019 2:32:50 AM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		Ah yes, the ancient and glorious One Hundred Acre Wood Battles, Piglets, vs Guatemalan Banana chucker's, lead by a thousand rabbits disguised as Nappy with his Blue and Red, while the no sweat pigs wore grey and red, and the Russians still claim they defeated the famed Tigger too!

< Message edited by Zovs -- 7/25/2019 3:04:05 AM >

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Post #: 176
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/25/2019 3:17:17 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		A little girl, carrying her favorite stuffed toy, went up to her father while he was sitting on his favorite chair in the living room and asked "Daddy, where does Pooh come from?"

The very wise man quickly said "Go ask your Mother."

So the little girl went into the kitchen where her mother was working and asked "Mommy, where does Pooh come from?"

The poor mother sat the little girl on a chair and then started to describe the digestive process, from eating to elimination. As the mother went on, the little girls eyes got bigger and bigger. When her mother was finished, she asked the little girl "Now, do you have any more questions?"

The little girl, in a squeeky, high pitched little voice asked "What about Tigger?"

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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Post #: 177
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/25/2019 5:55:17 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Ah yes, the ancient and glorious One Hundred Acre Wood Battles, Piglets, vs Guatemalan Banana chucker's, lead by a thousand rabbits disguised as Nappy with his Blue and Red, while the no sweat pigs wore grey and red, and the Russians still claim they defeated the famed Tigger too!
warspite1

But in WWII who was better, Piglet or Napoleon?

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Post #: 178
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/25/2019 11:06:17 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Piglet! He helped raise the morale a lot better than Napoleon. After all, the UK and the Commonwealth kept fighting whereas most of the French forces adopted a new salute and a new flag. The new French salute was to raise both arms up with palms forward. The new French flag was rectangular, in the upper left was a white cross on a white field, while the rest of the flag had white stripes alternating with white stripes.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 179
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 8/14/2019 3:17:20 PM   
Lukew

 

Posts: 33
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Status: offline 		The Russian Government os obviously playing politics here. Eminent historians such as Nipe, Glantz, Zamulin, Schrank have examined both the Soviet archives and the captured archives of II SS Panzer Corps (held in Washington DC) and have exposed Rotmistrov's account that, prior to 1990 Western historians had to rely upon were in fact no more than a fabrication. The Soviets claimed that II SS Panzer Corps had "hundreds of Panther and Tiger tanks" nut that the SS were decisively defeated losing he numbers of tanks abandoned on the field. As we now know however it was 5th Gaurds Tank Army that lost several hundred tanks. And some very senior German commanders actually came down to the battlefield next day (which tells us that it was the Germans who were in very secure possession of the battle field, not the Soviets)That fact alone tells us that Prokorovka was a clear and decisive tactical success for the Germans. Furthermore, from Nipe's analysis in particular we know that that II SS Panzer Corps only had a few operational Tigers on the day. They never had any Panthers at all, the rest of the German tanks that fought in the battle being Panzer III or IV models.

However, as Schrank shows the 5th Guard Tank Army did achieve something of great significance despite their near immolation. They gained a vital day for the Soviet strategic reserves to come up and move into position. By the end of the day II SS Panzer Corps was temporarily exhausted physically and emotionally. For a couple of days they were incapable of mounting further major offensive operations. Even then Operation Roland, commencing 14 July was more of a local attack that achieved little or nothing of significance and by 17 July 2nd SS Panzer Corps was being withdrawn from the sector to begin operations against a Red Army offensive further south on the River Mius, a battle described in detail by George Nipe in his book Decision on the Mius.

The Russians are just going to have to accept that the story put about by the Soviet Union during the Cold War is tripe. Nobody can put that particular cat back in the bag. They are going to have to accept that II SS Pamzer Corps won a decisive tactical victory. However, by this time Operation Citadel overall had failed, Even if II SS Panzer Corps had been in position to continue on 13 July they would have been placing II SS Panzer Corps in a highly vulnerable position to a further counter offensive by the Soviet strategic reserves in position to counter attack the flanks and rear of the salient. A situation that might have resulted in a German disaster a few days later had major offensive operations continued. Either way, by exhausting and effectively stopping II SS Panzer Corps the Red Army had gained a strategic although pyrrhic victory at the operational level. That of course set the stage for the 4th Battle of Kharkov. The Russian Government should be content with that and start placing greater emphasis on 4th Kharkov which really was a decisive but hard fought Red Army victory.

The fact that the Russian Government is clinging to the old story clearly demonstrates that they are playing politics and are not prepared to admit that the Soviet Union lied for decades about what really happened and were eventually caught out in that lie



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