Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I always find the distinction between who was the good guys and who were the bad guys is drawn by who wins. The Soviets invaded 4 peaceful countries before the war even started and not a word about it. Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

The US never recognized the incorporation of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania into the Soviet Union. Maps of the Soviet Union used to have a disclaimer to that effect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

One thing I remember from my journalism classes is Marshall McCluhan's quote, "The medium is the message." He wrote that in 1964 not long after the dawn of the age of live TV news. We applied it to TV, with the idea that TV focused more on stories that had video and less on those without video.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

One thing I remember from my journalism classes is Marshall McCluhan's quote, "The medium is the message." He wrote that in 1964 not long after the dawn of the age of live TV news. We applied it to TV, with the idea that TV focused more on stories that had video and less on those without video.

That was absolutely *not* the point of McLuhan's assertion that the medium itself was the message being sent.

It is more closely related to McLuhan's ideas about hot/cool media, but even there it's not really where McLuhan was going.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Yes there was a thread on this subject and no, it didn't end badly, it just fizzled out.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4668657

I said on that thread - and say again - that this is a subject war gamers and war game designers and producers should be talking about because it affects the future of the industry. I suggested that Matrix offer a few thoughts, but disappointingly this wasn't taken up.

There is no reason for this discussion topic to end poorly or get locked. What is being debated is pertinent and can't be ignored. There is no reason why we, as war gamers who spend our hard earned GBP/$/€ etc on games shouldn't be discussing the industry's future direction is there?

Well, it was locked before it could fizzle.

And the reason the discussions end poorly or get locked is that too many people seem fundamentally incapable of engaging an argument on it's merits without reflexively defaulting to any number of logical fallacies, whether a slippery slope argument or a false dichotomy argument or a wicked alternative argument or any number if borderline-irrelevant straw man arguments. There's a half dozen in this thread alone.

Many folks seem to react at a visceral level based on some really poor headline-writing (especially true with the New York Times article) and refuse to even read the articles/watch the videos under discussion. Many also claim that the mere source of the article is sufficient for thoughtless dismissal.

The bottom line is that these questions aren't new - David Hughes wrote an article about this for Battles! Magazine back in 2009. They're not going away as the gaming audience diversifies. And many of them ask some pertinent and thoughtful questions, like Rob Zany's column at VICE did.

We recorded a loooong podcast about this last week over at Armchair Dragoons, wherein we discuss the latest blowup, some of the previous blowups, and why many of the questions being asked are perfectly valid questions, but still facing hostility for even being asked.

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/podcast/mentioned-in-dispatches-special-summer-2019-edition/

quote:

the 24-hour news cycle and instant access to news via the Internet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

Yeah, I mean, it's not like McLuhan wasn't about 30% of the bibliography of my dissertation or anything. But get down whitcherbadself and your journalism prof (never mind I actually was one, not just studying under one).


The point of "the medium is the message" is that how you communicate something is the key component of the message.

Consider a message informing you that your significant other is leaving you.

A hand-written letter conveys one meaning
A text on the cell phone conveys another
A billboard on the side of the highway is a totally different kind of message even though they all say "I'm leaving you"


but hey, that class you had, I'm sure was pretty awesome.



Back to the subject - the makeups of different creative communities inevitably change of time, and those creative communities will challenge "the way it's always been done" to the displeasure of those who are perfectly fine with the way it's always been done.

It happens in literally every creative endeavor in human history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KurtC

The video originally posted was roundly criticized by a lot of people, though. People know what they are buying, so trying to educate them after or anyone acting like they didn't know, is bonkers, if you ask me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

and with that, I'm out and y'all can have your own playground back, as it's clear you're not big on other faces stopping in for a visit....

quote:

ORIGINAL: AndySfromVA

I hope Panzer Corps 2 will have a DLC that will have Allied campaigns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

When I play the Germans I think of the army. Not the Nazi party.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GaryChildress

quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

When I play the Germans I think of the army. Not the Nazi party.

Same here. The games I play strictly deal with the military aspects of the war and not politics. I mean, I don't know of any WWII games that include the more unsavory aspects of the war. Also both sides have unsavory moments of shame to them. Should we not play as allies in a flight simulator because of the effects of strategic bombing on civilians? Will it desensitize us to the killing of civilians in war? And what if a person is a German or Japanese citizen and wants to play as their own people in a WWII game? Should that be discouraged too? Should we view them as evil today because they chose to play the wrong side in a video game? I don't know. This all sounds a bit ridiculous or over the top to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

EDIT: Or what about war games at all? Do wargames "normalize" war? Maybe we should all quit wargames and play games like Asteroids or Pac Man?

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the same token, manpower restrictions would add hugely to the game experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

When I play the Germans I think of the army. Not the Nazi party.