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This Game is BORKED!

 
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This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 12:58:25 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Tribute to those not recently seen, but not forgotten:

round combat at Lunga (114,138)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 51374 troops, 512 guns, 156 vehicles, Assault Value = 2049

Defending force 13365 troops, 240 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 460

Japanese adjusted assault: 1782

Allied adjusted defense: 399

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2324 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 172 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 38 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 43 disabled

Allied ground losses:
307 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Vehicles lost 72 (36 destroyed, 36 disabled)

Gotta luv Gary's random outcomes to play this game …



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Pax
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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:06:05 PM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
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Anything peculiar about this…?

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:14:36 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


Anything peculiar about this…?

Fred





You don't see any peculiar about it?

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Post #: 3
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:23:43 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


Anything peculiar about this…?

Fred





You don't see any peculiar about it?

Not a thing, which is why I posted it. Perfectly reasonable under Gary's Laws of "Anything can Happen".



PS: Yes, I am crying in my coffee this morning, but I drink it that way a lot with my ability …

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Pax

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Post #: 4
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:23:45 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
You don't see any peculiar about it?

Apart from the fact that the 4:1 Japanese advantage doesn't work this time - as it usually does in this game - no....

Fred
-----


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 5
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:26:10 PM   
Leandros


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Joined: 3/5/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
PS: Yes, I am crying in my coffee this morning, but I drink it that way a lot with my ability …


Do not despair - it is no fault of yours.....

Fred
-----


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 6
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:36:17 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Lea, thanks for the kind words, but I know deep in my heart that it really is my fault … nd ayet I continue to play the game.

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Pax

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Post #: 7
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:38:14 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The Allies had the advantage of terrain and poor leadership. The Sergeants and Privates knew better than to listen to the officers, especially the 2nd LTs, and either retreat or surrender!

They were also probably hungry and knew that the best way to get some food was to let the Japanese get close, knife then, and then get their food.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 8
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:38:24 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Only thing odd is the lack of a fort reduction on a 4:1 outcome.

Otherwise the 4:1 odds mean nothing.

It took me at least five years to get over being outraged by the lack of positive results from favorable odds attacks.

It stems from a lifetime of playing games wherein the odds determine the combat results.

We experienced players know fully well that the odds mean almost nothing with respect to casualty determination.

Casualties, ie… combat results are determined by individual devices within LCUs firing at each other and only after all of the firing is done and the casualties incurred are combat odds calculated for the limited purpose of determining if forts are reduced and if defenders retreat.

The problem for us gamers who spent a lifetime using combat odds to determine results is in the misleading combat reports. We see stated odds and stated casualties in combat reports and intuitively expect them to be linked when they are not. Combat reports would be more useful to players if the provided a comparison of firepower along with the casualties and then followed that with an odds comparison that is coupled with any reported fort reductions or retreats.

Seeing a comparison of firepower would go a vey long way toward making combat reports both more accurate and easier to comprehend.

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Hans


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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:47:58 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
They were also probably hungry and knew that the best way to get some food was to let the Japanese get close, knife then, and then get their food.





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Pax

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Post #: 10
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:48:20 PM   
RangerJoe


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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

PS: Yes, I am crying in my coffee this morning, but I drink it that way a lot with my ability …


Just make coffee with salt in the water the way that the US Navy does it, it is a lot easier . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 11
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:49:08 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

PS: Yes, I am crying in my coffee this morning, but I drink it that way a lot with my ability …


Just make coffee with salt in the water the way that the US Navy does it, it is a lot easier . . .

Yep, that is the way I have it … just not with a salt shaker though.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 12
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 1:58:44 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I wouldn't be outraged by lack of success in a 4:1 assault, but I would be surprised by an outcome like this one. Surprised enough to double-check everything, make sure I had good commanders and that fatigue, morale and supply were okay, that the units had upgraded squads, etc. This is enough of an anomaly to prompt double-checking.

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Post #: 13
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:01:08 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Then switch to Baileys and Kahlua, it is tastier . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 14
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:07:03 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Oh I double checked, be sure of it. But, you may recall that I only play Ironman Nasty, Nasty (modified to be Nasty through 1946) … so I'm pretty sure that while my troops are pretty good (exp ~ +65) the allies are 99 (they would be higher if Andy could have gotten it!).

I mostly posted it in memory of the old "Borked" threads that used to appear ….

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Pax

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Post #: 15
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:10:44 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Pax, I wasn't suggesting you should attend to those things, just making a general observation as to what I might do if I encountered such a result. Contrary to the views of several of those above, I think this is a real outlier result.

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Post #: 16
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:11:08 PM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I wouldn't be outraged by lack of success in a 4:1 assault, but I would be surprised by an outcome like this one. Surprised enough to double-check everything, make sure I had good commanders and that fatigue, morale and supply were okay, that the units had upgraded squads, etc. This is enough of an anomaly to prompt double-checking.

In a recent attack by Chinese forces in my "Rookie II" thread their advantage against the Japanese was 72:1. Did it matter..? No.

Fred
-----
P.S.: They managed it the following day.....

< Message edited by Leandros -- 8/17/2019 2:13:59 PM >

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 17
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:27:55 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Chinese forces are so much weaker - lack of heavy weapons, perhaps early-war squads - that it wouldn't be as surprising. That this took place without forts and with a supply malus is pretty unusual.

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Post #: 18
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:42:16 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Pax, I wasn't suggesting you should attend to those things, just making a general observation as to what I might do if I encountered such a result. Contrary to the views of several of those above, I think this is a real outlier result.

CR;

I agree, it is an outlier. 4:1 and I suffer almost 10x the losses. But, hey, we've all experienced this type of outcome. Not happily, but we have.

Just think of some of the reactions 5 years ago … there would have been some major rants …

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Pax

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Post #: 19
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:48:03 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		My follow-up attack had more typical results :

Ground combat at Lunga (114,138)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 52956 troops, 592 guns, 266 vehicles, Assault Value = 1939

Defending force 13074 troops, 239 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 383

Japanese adjusted assault: 1061

Allied adjusted defense: 207

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), fatigue(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
292 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 63 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1464 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 65 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 39 (2 destroyed, 37 disabled)
Vehicles lost 40 (38 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

_____________________________

Pax

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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 2:50:38 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
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From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Chinese forces are so much weaker - lack of heavy weapons, perhaps early-war squads - that it wouldn't be as surprising. That this took place without forts and with a supply malus is pretty unusual.


Yes, because it's firepower that causes casualties, not assault value.

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Hans


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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 3:07:04 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
I agree, it is an outlier. 4:1 and I suffer almost 10x the losses. But, hey, we've all experienced this type of outcome. Not happily, but we have.

Just think of some of the reactions 5 years ago … there would have been some major rants …

Judging by losses you guys happened to attack Allied tanks in a bayonet charge. It happens

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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 3:30:38 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Not to mention a lot of support squads. More guns per person as well. Is there an HQ there?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 23
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 3:37:34 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Oh I double checked, be sure of it. But, you may recall that I only play Ironman Nasty, Nasty (modified to be Nasty through 1946) … so I'm pretty sure that while my troops are pretty good (exp ~ +65) the allies are 99 (they would be higher if Andy could have gotten it!).

I mostly posted it in memory of the old "Borked" threads that used to appear ….

Is this because "ranting" Castor Troy recently rejoined us?
(don't worry, he used the term to describe himself or I would not have used it!)

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 4:11:35 PM   
Trugrit


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From: North Carolina
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Your first attack is fairly standard for the Pacific war.
The Japanese were better on defense and not so good on attack.
The Japanese typically lost about 3 to 1 on attack later in the war.

This, as a general rule, due to better Allied firepower.

Your first attack was very similar to the battle of Edson’s Ridge on Guadalcanal.

Two battalions of Japanese attacked around 300 Marines and soldiers on high ground.
6,300 Japanese against 300 Marines and soldiers.

Loss is not exact but:
263 Allied killed, wounded or missing.
708 to 800 Japanese killed, wounded or missing.

Guadalcanal by Richard Frank, Page 245.

Your second attack was not as typical of the real war.

Allied casualties of better than 5 to 1 while on defense on high ground in the real war?
They must not have had any ammo left.

Or……..Gotta luv Gary's random outcomes to play this game …


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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 5:12:31 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		Anyone remember what a 2 or 5 got you in most results for an AH game?

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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 5:15:55 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
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From: Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

PS: Yes, I am crying in my coffee this morning, but I drink it that way a lot with my ability …


Just make coffee with salt in the water the way that the US Navy does it, it is a lot easier . . .


I don't know about salt in the water, but there sure was enough av gas to keep us all regular onboard the Enterprise. I worked in squadron AIMD during my second deployment (VS-21) in 1986. Every morning I would take the 40-cup coffee urn across the passageway to fill it. On the way back I could see a distinct oil slick on top when entering the passageway again. Mmmmm... love me some spiked coffee man. (Addendum: Yes, Mr. Gorn, JP4. It gets into everything eventually.)

The Captain did buy the crew galley 3 soft-serve ice cream machines in 1984 and they were heaven when away from civilization for months at a time.

< Message edited by Moltrey -- 8/18/2019 8:33:09 PM >

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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 6:00:06 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		You mean jet fuel?

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RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 6:28:39 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

This Game is BORKED!


So what else is new?

quote:

. . . Every morning I would take the 40-cup coffee urn across the passageway to fill it. On the way back I could see a distinct oil slick on top when entering the passageway again. . .


Coffee does have a natural oil.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 29
RE: This Game is BORKED! - 8/17/2019 8:59:54 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
They were also probably hungry and knew that the best way to get some food was to let the Japanese get close, knife then, and then get their food.






...are we endorsing cannibalism here...

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