RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German)

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RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 10:16:32 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Turn 4 - Polish Movement Segment

Nothing happens

Turn 4 - German Defensive Fire Segment

The Radio-equipped leader disproves my previous statements about player OBA and places its FFE 1 hex away from 16,25.
The three northern stacks all fire at the Polish squad in 12,15 and kill it.
The two southern stacks fire at the Polish squad in 16,25 with no effect.
The half-tracks and the 75mm finally manage to break the southernmost ATR.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 31

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 10:19:31 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Turn 4 - Polish Advancing Fire Segment

Nothing happens

Turn 4 - Polish Rout Segment

The ATR squad broken by half-tracks routs east and disappears

Turn 4 - German Rout Segment

Nothing happens

Turn 4 - Polish advance

Nothing happens

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 32

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 10:23:44 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Turn 5 - German Administrative Segment

No German units OOC.

Turn 5 - German Fire Segment

OBA falls on 16,26 and hits the Polish squad in 16,25 but causes no damage

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 33

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 10:33:41 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Turn 5 - German Movement Segment

All German units move east towards the east edge; five squads - not enough for a victory - exit the map.

One of the halftrack attempts to move forward again and, again, is stunned by a Polish squad

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 34

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 10:36:41 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Turn 5 - Polish Defensive Fire, German Advancing Fire, German Rout and Polish Rout Segments:

Nothing happens

Turn 5 - German Advance

All the German squads advance towards the east map edge.

Turn 5 - Polish player turn

The only thing happening in the whole player turn is another impressive - and harmless - display of fireworks, courtesy of the German OBA

< Message edited by UP844 -- 8/19/2019 10:40:01 PM >

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 35

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 10:46:27 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Turn 6 - German Administrative Segment

An halftrack goes OOC (but it does not count for Victory Purposes)

Turn 6 - German Fire Segment

Nothing happens

Turn 6 - German Movement Segment

All the remaining nine German squads exit the map, for a total of 14 out of 15, plus a HS and 5 leaders that do not count towards Victory achievement.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 36

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 10:54:06 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

My plan worked as intended: I pierced a hole through the Polish line exerting overwhelming pressure and quickly broke through it.

I think deploying the Polish units on the forward slope of the hills makes them easy targets for the German halftracks and for the Infantry gun and also, if the German player is so inclined, to German infantry: a human will start firing at its full range (10 hexes) while the Polish AI units will not reply until the enemy comes (if it is fool enough) within their normal range. Even when playing the Polish side with a human player, I would prefer a reverse slope approach (with the exception of the HMG), to inflict the maximum damage to the Germans as they are forced to advance.

On the plus side, I did not see the usual run to the Exit VP.

My thanks to Hailstone for reviving this classic (if I remember correctly, it was the first scenario of Crescendo of Doom).

< Message edited by UP844 -- 8/19/2019 10:55:41 PM >

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 37

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/19/2019 11:26:33 PM

Hailstone
Matrix Hero

Posts: 666
Joined: 1/19/2016
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

UP844, I enjoyed your AAR immensely. As you were graphically moving and attacking I did see where I could have
made changes in positioning. I can only go with my limited ASL skills as a guide and in so doing it took me 2 attempts
before I was able to get a minor win. So I added an extra turn from 8 to 9 but clearly against an accomplished ASL'er
it didn't pose the challenge I hoped for.

You mentioned the "usual run to the Exit VP" did not occur. I know what you mean and it's annoying as hell. I defeat
it by assigning units to the map as FREE PLACEMENT then DEFEND HEX, the hex the unit is on. The problem
is that the AI can't randomize the units so the scenario will always play the same. It has to be a bug. The defender
should not be retreating into the opposing unit exit hex.

Again, thanks man for using one of my ported scenarios for your AAR and I'll take your suggestions to heart.

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 38

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/20/2019 2:13:38 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Thank you Hailstone, for porting into ToTH many scenarios I played some years (decades, to be honest

) ago.

"Breakthrough-type" scenarios still have some issues: the new AI orders allow avoiding the mad rush to the exit hexes, as you cleverly implemented in "The Battle for the Warta Line", but - in my opinion - this is not enough. The attacker has the advantage of focusing its whole strength at the Schwerpunkt, with the guarantee that AI units not directly involved will not attempt to seal its penetration.

The "textbook" approach for a defence should envisage a series of outposts to locate the enemy axis of attack and a reserve force, to be committed wherever a breakthrough takes place. Unfortunately, this is very difficult to portray in ToTH as AI units only move when they:

1) are directed to move to a specific hex in their orders (but this is useless, since knowing in advance where the reserve units will be needed is impossible before the attacker makes its move)

2) are attempting to retake a VP hex taken by the enemy. This approach might be effective to make the "reserve" units move towards the breakthrough area. Some fiddling with the value of the VP hexes is required: they should yield a minimum of VPs, so to force the attacker to exit the map to win. I tried applying it in an upgraded version of "Buchholz Station", to prevent the US forces from running to the Exit hexes, but I am still trying to understand what exactly triggers the AI move when VP hexes are occupied by the enemy.

Keep up the good work!

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Hailstone)

Post #: 39

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/20/2019 3:01:13 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

I made a quick game (with no need to take screenshots, it takes a lot less time) and this time I attacked south of the large wood. I took more losses (3 leaders, 3 squads, 1 HS and 1 half-track) and I managed to exit 10 squads at the end of turn #8, obtaining the same result as you did.

If there are a couple Polish squads to spare, they should be placed deep within the central wood: this will make a German central approach more difficult. I will also shorten the scenario duration to 8 turns, to keep the German player under pressure.

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 40

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/20/2019 9:47:07 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

I also tried a very northern approach, moving along the north map edge (a sure way to have a secure flank) and all the German units exited on Turn 5

.

Despite the Polish OBA making some damage (it killed a squad, STUNNED and then killed a HT, and broke some squads slowing the German advance), the 5-to-1 numerical superiority of the Germans overwhelmed the Polish defenders on the northern hill.
The other HT was STUNNED by HMG fire and both of them played no part in the battle, but this did not affect the scenario outcome.

On a side note, a previously broken Polish squad self-rallied and attempted to go back to its set-up hex, but was wiped out by German fire as soon as it entered the level 1 hexes.

I will try making some experiments on this breakthrough scenario issue.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by UP844 -- 8/20/2019 9:48:50 PM >

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 41

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/20/2019 11:12:49 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

I edited the scenario, adding a string of VP hexes running along a north-south line and changing the orders of a few Polish units from "DEFEND HEX X,Y" to "NOT DEFINED" (which, if I have correctly understood the AI psychology, should have them move to retake any VP conquered by the Germans).

I disabled the "Fog of War" feature to see what the Polish unit do and took the north approach again. I regret having to report that the units with "NOT DEFINED" orders moved as soon as the Germans took some VP hexes, and then ran in circles near their starting locations, moving 1 hex per Movement Segment

instead of attempting to retake the lost VP hexes.

P.S. I noticed the Polish OBA is a 80mm rocket. Shouldn't it be an 80mm mortar? In all the tests I made, it only fired 1 or 2 times. I did not miss the ceaseless pounding typical of the AI OBA, but it can make things a little bit more difficult for the Germans.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by UP844 -- 8/20/2019 11:13:38 PM >

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 42

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/21/2019 12:16:19 AM

Hailstone
Matrix Hero

Posts: 666
Joined: 1/19/2016
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

Of course, you are right about the artillery and I confess to not knowing they were rockets, my "R Suffix" string. I was only recently
educated by Big Ivan and Rico so, yeah, please make the appropriate changes. I've learned quite a bit about making scenarios and as
I continue they are getting better, at least I tell myself that.

A responsive AI would make all the difference but we fight with the army we have. Didn't I hear that somewhere? I noticed where
Defend Hex works differently between infantry and AFV's. The infantry is much more responsive and will move to the hex but the
AFV's often just start their engines then stop without moving a single hex.

We have much to learn, still.

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 43

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/22/2019 11:05:52 PM

UP844
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Do you remember the introduction to the rules for thrown DCs, back in COI/COD days? "Desperate men in desperate situations do desperate things".

In a desperate attempt to instill some aggressiveness into the AI, I changed the orders for the 4 squads and 2 leader making up the (admittely meager) Polish reaction force from "NOT DEFINED" to "ATTACK".

I made a northern attack and, on the Polish Turn #1, the units started moving. I was pleased to see them move, but I did not understand why they did so, since I had not yet taken any VP. On Turn #2 the units ran to the nearest Exit hex and then began a cycle, advancing out of the hex in the Advance Segment and then moving back in the Movement Segment

.

I am running out of ideas about this issue

.

P.S. I also changed the Polish OBA from "80mm R" to "80mm MTR" and it fired three times (causing no damage, but this is another matter).

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Hailstone)

Post #: 44

RE: AAR - Battle for the Warta Line (German) - 8/23/2019 10:05:56 PM

Hailstone
Matrix Hero

Posts: 666
Joined: 1/19/2016
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

DEFEND HEX is the only way I found to keep the units from the exit hexes. I avoid scenarios that require
the Defender to move units or receive reinforcements because the AI doesn't follow the commands, at least
as far as I understand they should work.

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 45