RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction

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RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 9/11/2019 2:22:49 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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I learned that Tanks backed up by lots of artillery are great at taking down heavily fortified cities/bases. Naval bombardments don't normally target the enemy tanks unless there aren't that many units present but aerial bombing does target tanks.

Good luck!

(in reply to Gridley380)

Post #: 61

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 8:07:09 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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Any update?

(in reply to Naskra)

Post #: 62

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 12:23:08 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

Haven't played but a few turns in the past couple of weeks. Have been screwing around with a computer build.

May get some time this weekend to advance this scenario and will provide updates as I can.

Hadn't meant for this to become a mini-AAR, but I can see why some have an interest in seeing how things play out as we rarely get to see events transpiring in 1946.

Thanks for the interest.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 63

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 12:29:07 PM

btd64

Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
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Hans, This thread/AAR is good. I like reading it. Very good information....GP

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(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 64

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 1:28:24 PM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

quote:

The alternative to the A bomb would have to have been a naval blockade for an extended period of time, leading to a change of government in Japan that would have come to the table for talks. How long would that have taken though...

Back in 1945 the mores of 2019 did not apply. The populations of the Allied nations were pretty much indifferent as to the survival of the general Japanese population. By August 1945 the combination of submarines operating in the Sea of Japan and the B-29 mining campaign had reduced said population to eating grass. Without Russia attempting to grab land in the Far East (per Downfall) there would have been little reason to not impose such a blockade that ultimately would have starved the Japanese people into submission (or death).

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 65

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 3:52:51 PM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Back in 1945 the mores of 2019 did not apply. The populations of the Allied nations were pretty much indifferent as to the survival of the general Japanese population. By August 1945 the combination of submarines operating in the Sea of Japan and the B-29 mining campaign had reduced said population to eating grass. Without Russia attempting to grab land in the Far East (per Downfall) there would have been little reason to not impose such a blockade that ultimately would have starved the Japanese people into submission (or death).

All very good points.

I would add a few.

Source: Victory in the Pacific : PBS : The American Experience (specific show). I strongly recommend this very balanced presentation which includes many Japanese Historians and cites evidence available.

Truman was largely under pressure from Marshall to "be resolute - be a leader - make the tough choices". The quickest way to end the war was invasion.

Conversely James Byrnes - his mentor was deeply worried about the losses, the impact on the President and how to achieve unconditional surrender. Allowing Japan terms in Byrnes opinion would be the end of the Truman Presidency. I would say "some advisers" favored the Blockade approach until they were aware of the Bomb.

There was no concern about the use of the Bomb nor a starvation tactic as indicated above. This was simply the natural extension of the FDR administration and the requirement for unconditional surrender - it had to be achieved. The US AND Japan demonized their opponents in very racially charged ways.

As to change in Government in Japan ? Apparently never likely.

Once the Postdam declaration was issued "even the moderates" within the Japanese government mistook it as a sign of weakening US resolve. Magic / Ultra intercepts and Imperial war diaries indicate the Government was prepared to carry on - they had all the guns - and ket-su-go (spelling) was on.

Once the double shock of Soviet mobilization and the Bomb occured - some Japanese leaders wanted the surrender terms to append: Japanese Army to disarm itself - No Occupation - Japan to try its own War Criminals - and of course the infamous "Imperial Prerogative".

This is quite remarkable given they had recommended their own people eat grass as official policy. It is very clear the War Cabinet intended to carry on till the end - until such time they had sacrificed themselves as well.

< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 10/4/2019 3:56:05 PM >

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 66

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 8:02:14 PM

Trugrit

Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

Hans, This thread/AAR is good. I like reading it. Very good information....GP

Yes,

I like it too. In WITP-AE, 1946 is the far country.

Hans is like an explorer going into the darkest Amazon where few players have ever set foot
and taking a look around.

Maybe some of the players we have not heard from in years have gone there
and never returned.

(in reply to btd64)

Post #: 67

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 11:17:35 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

On February 12th we went for another round at Osaka, reducing forts to 6 for a heavy price:

Ground combat at Osaka/Kyoto (109,59)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 148794 troops, 2910 guns, 2525 vehicles, Assault Value = 3755

Defending force 129259 troops, 1423 guns, 210 vehicles, Assault Value = 2753

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 6

Allied adjusted assault: 1051

Japanese adjusted defense: 18873

Allied assault odds: 1 to 17 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2086 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 123 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 53 disabled
Engineers: 9 destroyed, 35 disabled
Guns lost 71 (9 destroyed, 62 disabled)
Vehicles lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
14998 casualties reported
Squads: 33 destroyed, 1574 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 212 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 337 disabled
Guns lost 328 (18 destroyed, 310 disabled)
Vehicles lost 200 (11 destroyed, 189 disabled)

Assaulting units:
785th Tank Battalion
82nd (West African) Division
87th Infantry Division
8th Infantry Division
10th Indian Division
31st Infantry Division
38th Infantry Division
2nd Australian Division
8th Australian Division
I Corps Engr Grp
4th Infantry Division
767th Tank Battalion
9th Indian Division
194th Tank Battalion
6th Army Engr Grp
5th Indian Division
72nd Mortar Battalion
85th Mortar Battalion
134th (East Ang) Regiment
86th Medium Regiment
786th Field Artillery Battalion
147th Field Artillery Battalion
789th Field Artillery Battalion
6th Medium Regiment
778th Field Artillery Battalion
8th Belfast Heavy Regiment
85th Medium Regiment
87th Medium Regiment
1st Indian Medium Regiment
779th Field Artillery Battalion
2nd Indian Field Regiment
780th Field Artillery Battalion
88th Medium Regiment

Defending units:
143rd JAAF AF Bn
6th Ind. Brigade
355th Division
61st Ind.Mixed Brigade
16th Ind. Brigade
123rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
190th JAAF AF Bn
153rd Division
25th Ind.Mixed Brigade
144th Division
216th Division
13th JAAF AF Bn
225th Division
163rd JAAF AF Bn
49th Division
316th Division
56th Ind.Mixed Brigade
189th JAAF AF Bn
84th Division
37th Ind.Mixed Brigade
147th Division
61st JAAF AF Bn
246th JAAF AF Bn
26th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
11th Air Division
8th Imperial AA Division
13th Base Force
Kinki JNAF Base Force
2nd Machine Cannon AA Battalion
Osaka Naval Base Force
45th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Maizuru Naval Base Force
25th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
53rd Air Flotilla
11th Machine Canno AA Battalion
15th Area Army
65th Construction Battalion
5th Imperial AA Division
121st AA Regiment
22nd Ind. AA Battalion
Kakogawa JAAF Base Force

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Trugrit)

Post #: 68

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 11:20:30 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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On the 13th we went for another round at Kagoshima reducing forts to 3 for a heavy price.

Kagoshima has been my bane in this campaign. It was the first large base with level 9 forts that was invested.
Most of the HI has been overrun and it still hasn't fallen.

Ground combat at Kagoshima (102,60)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 147855 troops, 1980 guns, 1468 vehicles, Assault Value = 3532

Defending force 72383 troops, 89 guns, 386 vehicles, Assault Value = 523

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 3

Allied adjusted assault: 1666

Japanese adjusted defense: 1810

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
5727 casualties reported
Squads: 36 destroyed, 69 disabled
Non Combat: 166 destroyed, 325 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 14 (4 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 29 (5 destroyed, 24 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
3989 casualties reported
Squads: 297 destroyed, 256 disabled
Non Combat: 48 destroyed, 70 disabled
Engineers: 63 destroyed, 37 disabled
Guns lost 87 (58 destroyed, 29 disabled)
Vehicles lost 50 (21 destroyed, 29 disabled)

Assaulting units:
37th Infantry Division
II Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
1st Prov Chinese Corps
716th Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
I Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
97th Infantry Division
XI Corps Engr Grp
3rd Australian Brigade
1st Motor Brigade
XXIV Corps Engr Grp
2nd New Chinese Corps
104th Infantry Division
7th New Chinese Corps
5th New Chinese Corps
3rd Motor Brigade
710th Tank Battalion
X Corps Engr Grp
1st New Chinese Corps
706th Tank Battalion
5th Chinese Corps
98th Mortar Battalion
134th Field Artillery Battalion
797th Field Artillery Battalion
750th Field Artillery Battalion
198th Field Artillery Battalion
225th Field Artillery Battalion
749th Field Artillery Battalion
669th Field Artillery Battalion
30th Field Artillery Regiment
168th Field Artillery Battalion
544th Field Artillery Battalion
532nd Field Artillery Battalion
545th Field Artillery Battalion
531st Field Artillery Battalion
249th Field Artillery Battalion
226th Field Artillery Battalion
71st Mortar Battalion
543rd Field Artillery Battalion
4th Field Artillery Battalion
145th Field Artillery Battalion
655th Field Artillery Battalion
80th Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
156th Division
4th Raiding Regiment
212th Division
1st Glider Inf. Regiment
3rd Raiding Regiment
146th Division
102nd Division
8th SP Gun Division
6th Ind.Tank Brigade
17th Garrison Division
57th Depot Division
2nd Air Fleet
3rd Depot Division
Waifu JAAF Base Force
2nd Glider Inf. Regiment
51st Depot Division
107th JAAF AF Bn
55th Depot Division
98th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Guards Depot Division
5th Depot Division
109th Ind.Mixed Brigade
126th Ind.Mixed Brigade
40th Army
103rd Division
5th Ind.Tank Brigade
26th JNAF AF Unit
6th Depot Division
107th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Kyushu JNAF Base Force
37th Ind. Engineer Regiment
7th Division
206th Division
312th Division
4th Depot Division
56th Depot Division

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 69

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 11:22:51 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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Shimizu fell on February 14th to a shock attack by the 20th Armor Division.
The paras present in the hex entered that turn and did not participate in the attack.

round combat at Shimizu (112,61)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 7563 troops, 155 guns, 792 vehicles, Assault Value = 696

Defending force 4924 troops, 50 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 14

Allied adjusted assault: 353

Japanese adjusted defense: 3

Allied assault odds: 117 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Shimizu !!!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-94-II: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1554 casualties reported
Squads: 53 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 210 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 21 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 25 (25 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 6

Assaulting units:
20th Armored Division
14th LRP Brigade
Lushai Brigade
77th LRP Brigade

Defending units:
105th JAAF AF Bn
60th Field AA Battalion
7th JNAF AF Unit
10th JNAF AF Unit
13th Air Flotilla
Hamamatsu JAAF Base Force

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 70

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 11:31:21 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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The B29s have switched over to daylight bombing. The IJ air in Tokyo and Yokahama is 99% suppressed.

If I rest for three days a few interceptors will come up to meet me, otherwise its a milk run now.

The B29-1s and B29-Bs are flying out of Shanghai. The B29-25s have staged forward from Tinian and are flying out of Nagasaki now.

Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 36
B-29B Superfort x 91

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 17 damaged
B-29B Superfort: 37 damaged

Manpower hits 97
Fires 105482

Afternoon Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 27,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt I x 6
Thunderbolt II x 7
B-29-25 Superfort x 283
La-5FN x 2

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 113 damaged

Manpower hits 146
Fires 119310

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 71

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 11:37:44 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

Backing up a few days, on February 11th I landed 3 Marine and 3 Army divisions each at Chiba and Utsonamiya. Both hexes are adjacent to Tokyo. On the 12th both objectives fell to the initial assaults. In addition, the Soviet 2nd Red Banner Army is adjacent to Utsonamiya ready to advance into Tokyo. The First Red Banner Army has invested Sendai. The 6th Guards Tank Armay and 17th Army overran northern Honshu. The NorPac invasion of Hokkaido is loaded and underway toward the beach at Bihoro, with a Soviet Army ready to follow.

Ground combat at Utsonomiya (115,60)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 84122 troops, 1207 guns, 1606 vehicles, Assault Value = 2592

Defending force 47365 troops, 419 guns, 220 vehicles, Assault Value = 1096

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 3185

Japanese adjusted defense: 46

Allied assault odds: 69 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Utsonomiya !!!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
D5Y1 Myojo: 10 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 8 destroyed
A6M2-N Rufe: 4 destroyed
E7K2 Alf: 2 destroyed
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed
F1M2 Pete: 3 destroyed
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
A6M8 Zero: 4 destroyed
A7M3-J Sam: 20 destroyed
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 16 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 23 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-61-Id Tony: 28 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 5 destroyed
Ki-51 Sonia: 3 destroyed
Ki-79a Nate: 4 destroyed
Ki-27b Nate: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 6 destroyed
Ki-54b Hickory: 33 destroyed

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
22440 casualties reported
Squads: 513 destroyed, 41 disabled
Non Combat: 725 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 114 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 254 (254 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 164 (164 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 9

Allied ground losses:
1682 casualties reported
Squads: 19 destroyed, 259 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 80 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 53 disabled
Guns lost 32 (3 destroyed, 29 disabled)
Vehicles lost 113 (6 destroyed, 107 disabled)

Assaulting units:
40th Infantry Division
2nd Arm Amphib Battalion
110th Cmbt Engineer Battalion
35th Cmbt Engineer Regiment
2nd Marine Division
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
131st Cmbt Engineer Regiment
4th USMC Tank Battalion
4th Marine Division
6th USMC Tank Battalion
780th Amphib Tank Battalion
6th Marine Division
98th Infantry Division
44th Tank Battalion
91st Infantry Division
713th Flame Tank Battalion
2/592nd Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion
9th AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
XIV US Corps
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
8th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
672nd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
33rd MAG
10th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
12th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
534th AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
23rd MAG
2nd Pioneer Battalion
1/592nd Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion
4th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3/592nd Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion
6th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
42nd MAG

Defending units:
116th Ind.Mixed Brigade
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
214th Division
115th Ind.Mixed Brigade
61st Division
351st Division
81st Division
60th Ind.Mixed Brigade
51st Army
Kasumigaura JNAF Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Chiba (114,61)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 99181 troops, 1532 guns, 2101 vehicles, Assault Value = 3126

Defending force 25597 troops, 320 guns, 2045 vehicles, Assault Value = 1014

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Allied adjusted assault: 5181

Japanese adjusted defense: 104

Allied assault odds: 49 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied forces CAPTURE Chiba !!!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A7M3-J Sam: 82 destroyed
G4M3a Betty: 92 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 4 destroyed
F1M2 Pete: 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed
E13A1 Jake: 4 destroyed
D4Y2-S Judy: 18 destroyed
D4Y2-C Judy: 1 destroyed
S1A1 Denko: 22 destroyed
J1N1-Sa Irving: 14 destroyed
D5Y1 Myojo: 23 destroyed
D4Y2 Judy: 28 destroyed
P1Y2 Frances: 27 destroyed
G8N Rita: 14 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 5 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 5 destroyed
Q1W1 Lorna: 8 destroyed
N1K1 Rex: 4 destroyed
G4M1-L Betty: 19 destroyed
H8K2-L Emily: 9 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 9 destroyed
B6N2a Jill: 9 destroyed
C6N2 Myrt: 9 destroyed
Ki-27b Nate: 6 destroyed
Ki-9 Spruce: 14 destroyed

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
6848 casualties reported
Squads: 95 destroyed, 27 disabled
Non Combat: 860 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 141 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 252 (242 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1983 (1969 destroyed, 14 disabled)
Units retreated 10
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
1449 casualties reported
Squads: 17 destroyed, 101 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 28 disabled
Vehicles lost 130 (16 destroyed, 114 disabled)

Assaulting units:
637th Tank Destroyer Battalion
1st Arm Amphib Battalion
5th USMC Tank Battalion
708th Amphib Tank Battalion
8th Army Engr Grp
775th Tank Battalion
3rd Marine Division
3rd USMC Tank Battalion
776th Amphib Tank Battalion
720th Flame Tank Battalion
18th Cmbt Engineer Regiment
IX Corps Engr Grp
81st Infantry Division
27th Infantry Division
5th Marine Division
43rd Infantry Division
1st Marine Division
1st USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
Marinier Brigade
826th AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
XVIII US Corps
727th AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
3rd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
7th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
12th MAG
III Amphib Corps
9th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
540th AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
1st USMC AA Battalion
31st MAG
3/542nd Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion
2/542nd Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion
1st Pioneer Battalion
82nd Mortar Battalion
11th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
5th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
4th AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
21st MAG
X US Corps
1/542nd Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion
1st Marine Air Wing
88th Mortar Battalion
41st MAG

Defending units:
27th Tank Regiment
4th Tank Division
42nd Division
2nd Ind.Tank Brigade
42nd Brigade
1st Ind.Tank Brigade
3rd Ind.Tank Brigade
48th Tank Regiment
2nd SP Gun Division
14th Hvy.Artillery Regiment
52nd Army
Mito JAAF Base Force

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 10/5/2019 12:00:28 AM >

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 72

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/4/2019 11:38:52 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

And the final update for today before I start another turn is a map of the current status:

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 73

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/5/2019 4:42:09 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

There was no concern about the use of the Bomb nor a starvation tactic as indicated above. This was simply the natural extension of the FDR administration and the requirement for unconditional surrender - it had to be achieved. The US AND Japan demonized their opponents in very racially charged ways.

The other often overlooked point is that both the US and Japan had chemical warfare supplies in place, and some biological weapons. Official policy on both sides was to use them only in retaliation (although the IJA had used gas in China, and, according to Polmar & Allan, against the Soviets in the 1939 clashes).

The US had a large stockpile on Okinawa, and a massive one on Luzon - many thousands of tons of the stuff. A specialised bomb had been developed to deliver it by air (or maybe that was the anthrax).

If some renegade IJ Colonel had used gas on Kyushu, all hell would have broken loose. The 'collateral damage' would quite possibly have been in 7 figure territory.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to Macclan5)

Post #: 74

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/5/2019 12:39:45 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

There was no concern about the use of the Bomb nor a starvation tactic as indicated above. This was simply the natural extension of the FDR administration and the requirement for unconditional surrender - it had to be achieved. The US AND Japan demonized their opponents in very racially charged ways.

The other often overlooked point is that both the US and Japan had chemical warfare supplies in place, and some biological weapons. Official policy on both sides was to use them only in retaliation (although the IJA had used gas in China, and, according to Polmar & Allan, against the Soviets in the 1939 clashes).

The US had a large stockpile on Okinawa, and a massive one on Luzon - many thousands of tons of the stuff. A specialised bomb had been developed to deliver it by air (or maybe that was the anthrax).

If some renegade IJ Colonel had used gas on Kyushu, all hell would have broken loose. The 'collateral damage' would quite possibly have been in 7 figure territory.

Using biological weapons brings its own problems for your side when they take over the infected area. They are best used to suppress areas that you have no intention of going into and can prevent infected enemy from escaping out of. I don't know if you can rely on biological agents to die off after there are no more humans to infect. In recent times the combination of humans, pigs, birds and mosquitos has been a breakout disease incubator and spreader.

And some of the modern nerve agents are lethal in trace doses on the skin. I hope all leaders are reluctant to open that Pandora's box!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 75

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/5/2019 2:53:45 PM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

I re-read the chapter after posting.

The US Army Air forces 1944 retaliation plan, following any IJ first use, was to air deliver, within 15 days, 86,000 bombs delivering mustard gas or phosgene, plus they had 6500 multiple use spray tanks for low altitude delivery of mustard gas.

By April 1945 there were 43,000 mustard gas release land mines stockpiled in the Pacific for defensive belt use.

By 1945, the numbers had increased to 1 million chemical bombs, 100k+ reusable aerial spray tanks, along with a stockpile of 5.5m chemical artillery shells.

This is all from Polmar & Allen starting around page 204 for those with the book.

If some idiot Colonel Tsuji type had used chem on the Kyushi beaches, we are talking absolute, terminal, carnage.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 76

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/5/2019 5:21:22 PM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

Seems that I read somewhere about the bombers on the I-400 series I-boats were at least considered as delivery vehicles for some sort of biological or chemical weapon. They were probably the only way of delivering that sort of weapon against the target most suseptible to such weapons: civilians. Of course would probably have assured that Halsey's remark shortly after Pearl Harbor came true.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 77

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/7/2019 12:55:43 PM

Gridley380

Posts: 464
Joined: 12/20/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

And the final update for today before I start another turn is a map of the current status:

HansBolter, what do the overall army points look like at this point?

As others have said, thank you for updating this mini-AAR.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 78

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/7/2019 1:28:29 PM

jwolf

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
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Hans, that battle at Osaka looks like you're making good progress. Granted your casualties were still very high, but only a relatively small number of destroyed squads. So if you can rotate out the burned out units that particular combat result doesn't seem so bad. Admittedly, I don't know if you have enough time for the large number of disabled squads to recover enough to get any more use out of those units.

(in reply to Gridley380)

Post #: 79

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/8/2019 10:05:54 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

And the final update for today before I start another turn is a map of the current status:

HansBolter, what do the overall army points look like at this point?

As others have said, thank you for updating this mini-AAR.

Been playing this game since release and its predecessor prior to that and have to confess I have no idea what 'army points' are. Is it a Japanese thing?

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Gridley380)

Post #: 80

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/8/2019 10:07:23 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

On February 14th the Soviet 25th Army had a round at Maebashi, the base in the mountains to the NW of Tokyo:

Ground combat at Maebashi (113,59)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 125725 troops, 2479 guns, 2162 vehicles, Assault Value = 3745

Defending force 28355 troops, 346 guns, 118 vehicles, Assault Value = 635

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 7

Allied adjusted assault: 1617

Japanese adjusted defense: 1645

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 7)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
725 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 142 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 21 (1 destroyed, 20 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
2639 casualties reported
Squads: 155 destroyed, 104 disabled
Non Combat: 113 destroyed, 21 disabled
Engineers: 29 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 156 (112 destroyed, 44 disabled)
Vehicles lost 261 (210 destroyed, 51 disabled)

Assaulting units:
76th Tank Brigade
126th Rifle Division
105th Rifle Division
259th Tank Brigade
125th Tank Brigade
218th Tank Brigade
386th Rifle Division
209th Tank Brigade
393rd Rifle Division
384th Rifle Division
172nd Brigade
46th Engr-Sapper Bde
366th Rifle Division
54th Engr-Sapper Bde
40th Rifle Division
190th Rifle Division
25th Mechanized Brigade
67th Guards Mortar Regiment
221st Corps Art Brigade
1137th Howitzer Regiment
386th Howitzer Regiment
2nd/307th Gd.Mortar Regiment
117th/428th OM Gun Battalion
1134th Howitzer Regiment
56th Hvy.Mortar Brigade
215th Howitzer Regiment
1132nd Howitzer Regiment
26th/42nd Gd.Mortar Regiment
72nd/74th Gd.Mortar Regiment
219th Corps Art Brigade
3rd Gd.Breakthrough Artillery Division

Defending units:
114th Ind.Mixed Brigade
221st Division
86th Division
118th Ind.Mixed Brigade
17th Ind. Brigade
53rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
113th AA Regiment
18th Hvy.Artillery Regiment
54th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind.AA Gun Co

_____________________________

Hans

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Post #: 81

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 3:28:39 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

And the final update for today before I start another turn is a map of the current status:

HansBolter, what do the overall army points look like at this point?

As others have said, thank you for updating this mini-AAR.

Been playing this game since release and its predecessor prior to that and have to confess I have no idea what 'army points' are. Is it a Japanese thing?

The Japanese can replace squads using manpower and supply points. I am not sure if Armament points are used to cover their equipment or if that is only for heavier equipment like mortars and artillery.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 82

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 4:38:48 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

I'm about to get schooled, showing my ignorance like this, but....

...Manpower, to my knowledge, contributes nothing to either side except to get set on fire and spreading, damaging industry. I don't believe it has anything to do with squads, units or armies.

Is it time for me to get schooled?

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 83

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 6:06:42 AM

jdsrae

Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm about to get schooled, showing my ignorance like this, but....

...Manpower, to my knowledge, contributes nothing to either side except to get set on fire and spreading, damaging industry. I don't believe it has anything to do with squads, units or armies.

Is it time for me to get schooled?

I'll be gentle

Japan's personnel squads and artillery devices need manpower and armaments points to be spent on them to appear, plus supply of course. Everything costs supply...
Japan's vehicle devices need manpower and vehicle points, plus supply, to be spent on them to appear on map.
Japan's LCUs need lots of these spent on them just to appear, then more to fill them out to 100% TOE.
Japan's Manpower points are also "spent" by creating rookie pilots and on any industry expansion, along with supply of course!

A few more details from my notes, which I summarised from the manual.
Combat squad upgrades: 1 MP point per load cost of infantry and/or engineers returns to the MP pool on upgrade
Vehicles: 1 vehicle point + 1 MP point per load cost of the unit. eg: 1 x Type 95 Light Tank needs 10 x vehicle + 10 x MP points
Personnel squads: MP points equal to load cost of the squad + 1 armament point only
Weapons: 1 armament point + 1 MP point per load cost of the unit.
Emergency mobilisation: If insufficient points to fill TOE completely, unit arrives at 25% TOE at no cost to production system
Unit Load cost = troop load plus cargo load
troop load = personnel squads
cargo load = vehicles plus armaments: need to split between the two, plus personnel squads
Drawdown from MP, Vehicle and Armament pools depends on the TOE for each unit, and there are lots of different TOEs�

BTW, I think Gridley is asking what the victory point comparison is between Japan and Allied Armies from the victory points summary screen.

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 10/9/2019 6:19:27 AM >

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Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 84

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 6:41:40 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

Suggest you set your Soviet tankers to Shock for round two. If they are near full strength that is about 500 T34s.

If their 30 or so each personnel squads just took a beating, turn off replacements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

On February 14th the Soviet 25th Army had a round at Maebashi, the base in the mountains to the NW of Tokyo:

Ground combat at Maebashi (113,59)

Allied Deliberate attack

.....

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 7

76th Tank Brigade
...
259th Tank Brigade
125th Tank Brigade
218th Tank Brigade
...
209th Tank Brigade
...

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

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Post #: 85

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 12:12:52 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

Have been moving all tank units to siege hexes, but frankly forgot to set them to shock at Maebashi.

Will endeavor to remember for all future siege battles.

The Soviet 2nd Red Banner Army is one day away from entering Utsonomiya and Joining with the two US Corps in that hex.

Once consolidated, they and the two US Corps in Chiba will advance into Tokyo.
So I'm about three days away from finally getting Tokyo invested and testing the waters on the almost 800 LCUs there.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 10/9/2019 12:15:36 PM >

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Hans

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Post #: 86

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 12:20:58 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

The Victory Point spread is brutal. No competitive game would ever reflect a ratio like this.

The Ironman side gets tons of units to lose and I made sure to kill every last one of them.

Attachment (1)

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Hans

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Post #: 87

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 1:20:19 PM

Gridley380

Posts: 464
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The Victory Point spread is brutal. No competitive game would ever reflect a ratio like this.

The Ironman side gets tons of units to lose and I made sure to kill every last one of them.

Thanks HansBolter, midway down the "scoring" list is the army points I was referring to above. Impressive that despite all your losses here you've still inflicted almost 4:1 on the Japanese!

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 88

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/9/2019 5:10:44 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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Soviet 1st Red Banner Army takes its first round at Sendai, leading with tank brigades shock attacking and rifle divisions deliberate attacking. Tank losses are moderate, with high disablements. Engineer losses are very light with disablements high. Overall a better result for the first round on a level 9 fortress than many previous efforts.

Ground combat at Sendai (117,58)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 111042 troops, 2055 guns, 1571 vehicles, Assault Value = 3689

Defending force 77758 troops, 683 guns, 234 vehicles, Assault Value = 2133

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 8

Allied adjusted assault: 2506

Japanese adjusted defense: 3349

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 8)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
4513 casualties reported
Squads: 75 destroyed, 188 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 126 disabled
Engineers: 20 destroyed, 57 disabled
Guns lost 66 (27 destroyed, 39 disabled)
Vehicles lost 70 (15 destroyed, 55 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
7417 casualties reported
Squads: 104 destroyed, 508 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 135 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 135 disabled
Guns lost 174 (43 destroyed, 131 disabled)
Vehicles lost 320 (25 destroyed, 295 disabled)

Assaulting units:
59th Rifle Division
75th Tank Brigade
208th Tank Brigade
257th Tank Brigade
22nd Rifle Division
98th Rifle Division
39th Rifle Division
231st Rifle Division
300th Rifle Division
365th Rifle Division
210th Tank Brigade
187th Rifle Division
45th Engr-Sapper Bde
77th Tank Brigade
927th SU Regiment
53rd Mortar Brigade
165th Hvy Howitzer Regiment
33rd Guards Mortar Regiment
87th Howitzer Regiment
273rd Cannon Regiment
1125th Cannon Regiment
182nd Howitzer Regiment
1124th Cannon Regiment
57th Hvy.Mortar Brigade
1139th Cannon Regiment
199th BM Howitzer Regiment
45th Howitzer Regiment
1133rd Howitzer Regiment
50th Cannon Regiment
1138th Cannon Regiment
1132nd Howitzer Regiment
1192nd BM Howitzer Regiment
372nd Hvy Howitzer Regiment
54th Guards Mortar Regiment

Defending units:
113th Ind.Mixed Brigade
3rd Mixed Brigade
322nd Division
25th Ind. Engineer Regiment
72nd Division
142nd Division
67th Infantry Group
202nd Division
44th Tank Regiment
54th Ind.Mixed Brigade
2nd Depot Division
34th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
117th AA Regiment
11th Area Army
48th Ind. AA Battalion
64th Construction Battalion
12th RF Gun Battalion
101st JAAF AF Bn
3rd Shin'yo Sqn
34th Ind. AA Battalion
12th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
21st RF Gun Battalion
Haranomachi JAAF Base Force

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Gridley380)

Post #: 89

RE: Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction - 10/13/2019 11:55:02 AM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

On February 20th we had another typically costly round at Kagoshima with some light finally appearing at the end of the tunnel.
With forts at level 1 I may manage to finally take this base with another two rounds.

Ground combat at Kagoshima (102,60)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 145577 troops, 1827 guns, 1536 vehicles, Assault Value = 3202

Defending force 70779 troops, 85 guns, 374 vehicles, Assault Value = 501

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 2442

Japanese adjusted defense: 2026

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
6178 casualties reported
Squads: 52 destroyed, 103 disabled
Non Combat: 71 destroyed, 348 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 44 (33 destroyed, 11 disabled)
Vehicles lost 26 (2 destroyed, 24 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
8341 casualties reported
Squads: 254 destroyed, 198 disabled
Non Combat: 74 destroyed, 70 disabled
Engineers: 119 destroyed, 68 disabled
Guns lost 65 (24 destroyed, 41 disabled)
Vehicles lost 94 (48 destroyed, 46 disabled)

Assaulting units:
I Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
25th Infantry Division
5th New Chinese Corps
7th New Chinese Corps
706th Tank Battalion
3rd Motor Brigade
104th Infantry Division
710th Tank Battalion
XI Corps Engr Grp
97th Infantry Division
716th Tank Battalion
1st Prov Chinese Corps
3rd Australian Brigade
37th Infantry Division
XXIV Corps Engr Grp
II Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
1st Motor Brigade
1st New Chinese Corps
2nd New Chinese Corps
X Corps Engr Grp
5th Chinese Corps
532nd Field Artillery Battalion
655th Field Artillery Battalion
543rd Field Artillery Battalion
226th Field Artillery Battalion
531st Field Artillery Battalion
168th Field Artillery Battalion
30th Field Artillery Regiment
749th Field Artillery Battalion
750th Field Artillery Battalion
669th Field Artillery Battalion
544th Field Artillery Battalion
249th Field Artillery Battalion
145th Field Artillery Battalion
198th Field Artillery Battalion
225th Field Artillery Battalion
545th Field Artillery Battalion
134th Field Artillery Battalion
4th Field Artillery Battalion
797th Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
146th Division
212th Division
55th Depot Division
3rd Raiding Regiment
102nd Division
17th Garrison Division
1st Glider Inf. Regiment
8th SP Gun Division
6th Ind.Tank Brigade
57th Depot Division
Kyushu JNAF Base Force
206th Division
6th Depot Division
156th Division
98th Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Ind.Tank Brigade
37th Ind. Engineer Regiment
312th Division
26th JNAF AF Unit
4th Depot Division
103rd Division
2nd Glider Inf. Regiment
4th Raiding Regiment
2nd Air Fleet
7th Division
Guards Depot Division
109th Ind.Mixed Brigade
126th Ind.Mixed Brigade
107th JAAF AF Bn
107th Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Depot Division
Waifu JAAF Base Force
40th Army
51st Depot Division
3rd Depot Division
56th Depot Division

_____________________________

Hans

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Post #: 90