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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga

 
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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/12/2019 7:50:11 AM   
Piteas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I believe Stalingrad will sell more than Desert War.


Yes, I´m an example. "Desert War" didn´t interest me enough, but Stalingrad is a magnet stone for the wargamers and I see that the new game has many improvements.
I´ll buy it.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/12/2019 1:31:27 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

The plan for the ALPHA is multi-scale. 2500m outside the city; 500m inside the city. We'll see how it plays.



Excellent! 500m still in! Just with you mentioning 10k hex and then about scaling back the scope of the game I started to wonder what may be getting cut.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/12/2019 1:33:37 PM   
wodin


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Knew I wouldn't be the only one.
Lots more I hope too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piteas


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I believe Stalingrad will sell more than Desert War.


Yes, I´m an example. "Desert War" didn´t interest me enough, but Stalingrad is a magnet stone for the wargamers and I see that the new game has many improvements.
I´ll buy it.



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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/13/2019 2:35:37 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

The plan for the ALPHA is multi-scale. 2500m outside the city; 500m inside the city. We'll see how it plays.


Excellent! 500m still in! Just with you mentioning 10k hex and then about scaling back the scope of the game I started to wonder what may be getting cut.

It's not about scales; it's about the quality of the content. Getting scenarios researched, designed, play-tested, and balanced is and will always be a challenge. Full Metal Stalingrad is a huge endeavor. Like Armored Brigade, it's going to take a base game and a whole lot of DLC to cover the scope of the Stalingrad Campaign at the scales we need to do justice to the subject.


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/13/2019 2:37:03 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Knew I wouldn't be the only one.
Lots more I hope too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piteas


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I believe Stalingrad will sell more than Desert War.


Yes, I´m an example. "Desert War" didn´t interest me enough, but Stalingrad is a magnet stone for the wargamers and I see that the new game has many improvements.
I´ll buy it.



Thank-you for your continued support of this game topic!


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/13/2019 11:52:08 PM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		Am currently working on the 500 meter per hex Stalingrad City map. First up? The tile map. The editor allows you to use either a tile map or a user created game map for your user-created scenarios. In all cases, you will start by creating a tile-based map. You can import a map image to use as a guide.




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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/13/2019 11:54:02 PM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		Use the editor to identify the type of terrain in each hex...





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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 11/13/2019 11:55:11 PM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		...and so on and so forth...

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< Message edited by bcgames -- 12/2/2019 10:28:49 PM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 12/2/2019 10:32:59 PM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		Not sure what happened to the images above. Strange.

Anyhow, I've wrapped up the Salerno scenario adventure/side-show and submitted it to St. Ruth. Now it's back to Stalingrad. Today I sent out the latest build to our ALPHA testers. This will be their first crack at the new game. We are looking forward to their feedback on the new capabilities.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 12/8/2019 6:31:27 AM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		Something new...The Command Button:






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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/6/2020 6:15:22 AM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		So...here I am with a fully developed map of Stalingrad @500meters per hex--and I have a WWI piece of crap battlefield that no WWII gamer would want to play on. A generic nothing of infantry and armor battalions attacking time-after-time against the same hex hoping for the BIG ADVANCE of one hex. Not fun. The diversity of Desert War unit capabilities must return else the result is generic blah, blah, blah. And stacking is required to keep the game fun.

More development ahead...




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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/15/2020 12:54:59 AM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		I don't think there will be a 500m per hex map...it's half way between anything that is interesting to me.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/16/2020 12:30:38 AM   
Deathtreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

I don't think there will be a 500m per hex map...it's half way between anything that is interesting to me.


Your call of course, but I think it would be a shame. Could be an opportunity for the small unique units to shine. Engineers, maybe commando on map units, infiltration capable units etc.

Rob.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/18/2020 4:08:49 AM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		I think 200 meters per hex might be the sweet spot. Long range weapon systems will exit the battlefield as units and re-appear as ground assets. We'll see...

< Message edited by bcgames -- 1/18/2020 4:10:38 AM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/18/2020 3:04:00 PM   
wodin


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/18/2020 3:11:07 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

I don't think there will be a 500m per hex map...it's half way between anything that is interesting to me.


Your call of course, but I think it would be a shame. Could be an opportunity for the small unique units to shine. Engineers, maybe commando on map units, infiltration capable units etc.

Rob.


Rob, exactly what I'm thinking! Special commands\abilities tailored for urban combat. Special defensive units that replicate a platoon in a fortified house (Pavlov). Sewers so enemy can suddenly appear from behind. Maybe you have to sacrifice part of your force to help combat rear area and logistic attacks due to Sewer infiltration. so your adding more player decisions as both sides try to manage and juggle finite resources. There are ways to do this and make itfun by innovation and thinking outside the box even if the combat is heavily confined and slow going,I've always been of the opinion to make a wargame on the city fighting the smaller the scale the more options open up. As you said 500 isn't giving enough detail and will seem stagnant and dull. I'd say 200 is the highest scale that should be considered. Personally I'd go for 80 to 100m.

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/18/2020 3:19:16 PM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/18/2020 3:28:23 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Another idea is abstract sniper teams. You position them in areas you think the enemy will be passing throug, if they do to represent officer casualties negative modifier are applied to units. To counter snipers you are able to give them an anti sniper role, the anti sniper snipers would patrol a radius of hexes and if any enemy sniper positioned there they are killed. So now you are giving players another layer and new decisions to make deciding how many teams to do anti sniper then where to set up all your sniper teams maybe able to say how many turns they stay out until come in for new orders.

So this along with the security infiltration decisions are adding new interesting gameplay making the actual bread and butter of move and attack hexes as just a part of a bigger gaming experience

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/18/2020 3:34:12 PM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/18/2020 9:55:43 PM   
Okayrun3254


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

I think 200 meters per hex might be the sweet spot. Long range weapon systems will exit the battlefield as units and re-appear as ground assets. We'll see...


I like the scale you are proposing for this battle.

This is a slugfest, but makes the Stalingrad battle compelling to me is the various terrain types, town, city, Mamayev Hill, factories, and wide gullies. I also like the variety of units; panzer, infantry, engineers, NKVD, all in a mix of guards, elite, regular, and militia types. The ability to capture the docks and stop Soviet reinforcements The player gets to decide where to put these units at critical points in the battle. In a smaller sized scale like this one, I would think the leaders would have more of an effect on units and the battle itself. I think this is the only city battle in history that I would like to play as a historical wargame.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/19/2020 3:02:29 AM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		Will give 200-meters per hex a go. There won't be any additional capabilities added to the game at this point; that door is closed. The engine in its current state has the capability to represent some of your ideas in a compelling game environment. Finding the best ground scale for the city fight is what I am about at this point.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/19/2020 3:18:38 AM   
bcgames


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Status: offline 		Stalingrad ALPHA has demonstrated success with the 2500 meter ground scale. The 500 meter per hex version of the Stalingrad city fight is unsatisfactory...a dumb slog. We're going to try a 200 meter ground scale. This will allow the stacking of a battalion and three platoons (tanks, assault guns, engineers, whatever...). Artillery & NKVD will be represented as a ground asset. Snipers, sewer movement, etc. will be represented by special operations assets. We'll see how that goes.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/20/2020 9:40:58 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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Status: offline 		Hi bcgames,

It's been a while since my last visit,and I am happy to see you are still having a go at it.

I think it's brilliant to borrow a page from Atomic's visitation to that theatre. IIRC they used three different hex scales: for the city fighting, the Don to Volga push and Uranus.

I have a bunch of materials for a game I was preparing for the Command Ops engine. I would be happy to put those materials to use some day, and unless the crazy bug of making games bites me , Desert War is the best engine out to do those battles.

You should also drop a line to Chris Maiorana, he rans the blog Sharp End Gaming, and he has been creating great stuff for Tiller's Panzer Battles and much more.

DW may have a small following, but I can't only see it growing if you go East or start making scenarios covering Korea, the Vietnamese wars, Burma 42-44, Malaya 42. Hard to compete with variety and unique gameplay, imo.

< Message edited by BletchleyGeek -- 1/20/2020 9:41:33 AM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/21/2020 4:21:54 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek

I think it's brilliant to borrow a page from Atomic's visitation to that theatre. IIRC they used three different hex scales: for the city fighting, the Don to Volga push and Uranus.


I love Desert War.  It works well for me as a game and a simulation.  I'm not loving Stalingrad right now.  It does not work as an interesting game and simulations are not my bottom line.  The homogenization that has occurred since basing the game system at the regimental level provides a simpler--and boring--game play.  I don't enjoy playing it.

This game engine centers best at the battalion level when it enjoys the full range of unique unit type capabilities. I think the ground scale to support a battalion system is to be found somewhere between 1000-1600 meters per hex. Panzer Campaigns uses 1000 meters per hex. Tiller may have it right when it comes to covering all WWII theaters of war. I think his maps at that scale are too big for me; I find it hard to "discover the big picture" when I play. Could be the interface; could be the scale. Dunno. Multi-scale is an interesting re-approach to game play and this is the path I'm on at this point.

Bottomline: If I'm not having fun playing the game--I'm not playing it. Working...


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/21/2020 5:12:46 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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Status: offline 		I agree with you that DW works best at Bn level... my understanding was that counter numbers were a bit much.

My suggestion would be that many Soviet Rifle divisions were usually very understrength, and Regiments rarely fielded all three battalions at full strength. So one heuristic to set force levels (besides the actual data which I am not sure is preserved at this level of detail) would be to estimate strength level on the basis of a 5% (conservative) loss on infantry units per day of high intensity operations. So a fresh unit would be after 10 day of operations be pretty mauled, probably not fielding all Bns.

This analysis can be done on a per unit basis, from the sources showing oob's and trying to figure out how long since last refit, specific data points etc.. It is not a small work, but gives hope.

For the Germans, I would say that fielding all three Bns at full strength happened for newly created divisions or transfers from France.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/21/2020 7:39:30 AM   
Piteas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Stalingrad ALPHA has demonstrated success with the 2500 meter ground scale. The 500 meter per hex version of the Stalingrad city fight is unsatisfactory...a dumb slog. We're going to try a 200 meter ground scale. This will allow the stacking of a battalion and three platoons (tanks, assault guns, engineers, whatever...). Artillery & NKVD will be represented as a ground asset. Snipers, sewer movement, etc. will be represented by special operations assets. We'll see how that goes.



I think the 200 meter ground scale and the special operations assets are good ideas. Stalingrad city needs a very "special system".

< Message edited by Piteas -- 1/21/2020 7:42:21 AM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/21/2020 1:21:30 PM   
benpark

 

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Status: offline 		A smaller scale would be great, and preferable (to me at least). WEGO company scale combat would be ideal here, but battalion could work.

When most wargamers think "Stalingrad", they mean the fight for the city itself. Most games for the computer have been the fight up until, or after that.

I'd have it at a scale where pertinent landmarks are in, and important- rather than a generic "city" look. Maybe 200m will do that. Look at L2's "Streets of Stalingrad" for inspiration. I'd also make the map as specific as possible. lots of good aerial stuff to help with that.


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/21/2020 9:25:02 PM   
Okayrun3254


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames


quote:

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek

I think it's brilliant to borrow a page from Atomic's visitation to that theatre. IIRC they used three different hex scales: for the city fighting, the Don to Volga push and Uranus.


I love Desert War.  It works well for me as a game and a simulation.  I'm not loving Stalingrad right now.  It does not work as an interesting game and simulations are not my bottom line.  The homogenization that has occurred since basing the game system at the regimental level provides a simpler--and boring--game play.  I don't enjoy playing it.

This game engine centers best at the battalion level when it enjoys the full range of unique unit type capabilities. I think the ground scale to support a battalion system is to be found somewhere between 1000-1600 meters per hex. Panzer Campaigns uses 1000 meters per hex. Tiller may have it right when it comes to covering all WWII theaters of war. I think his maps at that scale are too big for me; I find it hard to "discover the big picture" when I play. Could be the interface; could be the scale. Dunno. Multi-scale is an interesting re-approach to game play and this is the path I'm on at this point.

Bottomline: If I'm not having fun playing the game--I'm not playing it. Working...



I think I have always been more of a fan for the 1,000 - 1,600 meter scale. The 2500 scale seems to take to game a different direction with larger formations and such. The 1,000-1,600 meter seems closer to the Desert War scale. I too like the battalion sized units with a variety of capabilities. I had hoped there would be a scenario for Winter Storm, which has the right amount of formations, is good for 1,000 - 1,600 meter scale, and would be great with battalion sized units. Winter Storm could also include a few what if variants, like adding the Viking division for one.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/22/2020 4:12:54 AM   
bcgames


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From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek

My suggestion would be that many Soviet Rifle divisions were usually very understrength, and Regiments rarely fielded all three battalions at full strength. So one heuristic to set force levels (besides the actual data which I am not sure is preserved at this level of detail) would be to estimate strength level on the basis of a 5% (conservative) loss on infantry units per day of high intensity operations. So a fresh unit would be after 10 day of operations be pretty mauled, probably not fielding all Bns.

This analysis can be done on a per unit basis, from the sources showing oob's and trying to figure out how long since last refit, specific data points etc.. It is not a small work, but gives hope.

For the Germans, I would say that fielding all three Bns at full strength happened for newly created divisions or transfers from France.

Good and learned advice. Thanks.


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/22/2020 4:14:52 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Piteas

I think the 200 meter ground scale and the special operations assets are good ideas. Stalingrad city needs a very "special system".

Thanks for your support. We'll give it a test.


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/22/2020 4:16:15 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

I'd have it at a scale where pertinent landmarks are in, and important- rather than a generic "city" look. Maybe 200m will do that. Look at L2's "Streets of Stalingrad" for inspiration. I'd also make the map as specific as possible. lots of good aerial stuff to help with that.


Exactly!


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/22/2020 4:18:30 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Okayrun3254

I think I have always been more of a fan for the 1,000 - 1,600 meter scale. The 2500 scale seems to take to game a different direction with larger formations and such. The 1,000-1,600 meter seems closer to the Desert War scale. I too like the battalion sized units with a variety of capabilities. I had hoped there would be a scenario for Winter Storm, which has the right amount of formations, is good for 1,000 - 1,600 meter scale, and would be great with battalion sized units. Winter Storm could also include a few what if variants, like adding the Viking division for one.


Good points. I agree with your assessment. Winter Storm is not an option--it's a requirement!


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