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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Mods and Scenarios >> Equipment List?

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Equipment List? - 9/25/2019 8:04:05 PM

StuccoFresco

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Hello to all, is there a mega-file with all the weapons in the game and their stats? Like, a spreadsheet or something?

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RE: Equipment List? - 9/25/2019 10:06:32 PM

larryfulkerson

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There's a new version of the TOAW IV equipment database that has everything that it's possible to add to a scenario and the link to it is here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4431184&mpage=1&key=

It's an XML file but it has all the stats for each piece of equipment that exists in the game. It's not a spreadsheet but it's a start.

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RE: Equipment List? - 9/26/2019 12:32:36 AM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Hello to all, is there a mega-file with all the weapons in the game and their stats? Like, a spreadsheet or something?

If you have TOAWIV then you have this. It's in the manuals folder. Equipment List.rtf

Sorry but not spreadsheet.

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A: A stick.

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RE: Equipment List? - 9/26/2019 5:46:17 AM

StuccoFresco

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Good enough, thanks.

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RE: Equipment List? - 9/30/2019 8:38:40 PM

DZKriz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

There's a new version of the TOAW IV equipment database that has everything that it's possible to add to a scenario

It's an XML file but it has all the stats for each piece of equipment that exists in the game. It's not a spreadsheet but it's a start.

I converted Josant's TOAW IV equipment database referred to above into a nice Excel Spreadsheet for comparisons. The spreadsheet is attached here.

It would be very interesting to me (and I would assume others) how the various AP / AT / AA / DF, etc values are determined.

DZK

Attachment (1)

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RE: Equipment List? - 10/1/2019 8:37:54 AM

StuccoFresco

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DZKriz, you are awesome.

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RE: Equipment List? - 10/1/2019 9:34:25 AM

cathar1244

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quote:

It would be very interesting to me (and I would assume others) how the various AP / AT / AA / DF, etc values are determined.

As far as I know, none of it was ever formally explained (as to how the values were determined) in game documentation. Some of the methods, but not all, have been discovered by TOAW enthusiasts. For example, this thread talks about the AA ratings for guns (but SAMs still unknown so far as I know).

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4642509

Edited to add: By the way, JosAnt knows his way around the values in TOAW.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 10/1/2019 11:28:43 AM >

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RE: Equipment List? - 10/1/2019 10:39:13 AM

StuccoFresco

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Some of the ratings are indeed... curious, with later ww2 tank models having the same values. Of course each unit representing more than a single tank makes small differences frivolous, but still.

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RE: Equipment List? - 10/2/2019 7:08:06 PM

DZKriz

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Does anybody have the formulas for how the different pieces of equipment are rated?

It would be really nice if these formulas were now made available.

One can look up on Wikipedia if no where else the basic specs (weight, range, rapidity of fire) for pretty much every weapon or vehicle listed.

If these formulas were made available, it would add a new level of realism to the game both for this version and progressively for every succeeding version in the future.

< Message edited by DZKriz -- 10/2/2019 7:10:39 PM >

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RE: Equipment List? - 10/3/2019 5:55:14 AM

StuccoFresco

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Maybe in the manual? I faintly remember something like that for naval units, maybe there is something for basic equipment.

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RE: Equipment List? - 10/3/2019 6:37:55 AM

cathar1244

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Maybe in the manual? I faintly remember something like that for naval units, maybe there is something for basic equipment.

The version IV manual includes good information about how the values for ships are determined.

As for DZKriz's question/comments. The manual is already good-sized, and most players won't need to know how the values for the equipment were determined. Getting into all that is a fair amount of information. I've thought about trying to put together a supplement to Bob Cross' notes that he has on his site, but heck, I can't even find the time and discipline to complete a single map

Further to this. Some of the information is frankly unknown to most of us. Some of it may only be known to the original designer of the game (decisions made literally decades ago). Information in this category includes the values used for aircraft and SAMs. I have laboriously worked out a system to rate aircraft that produces ratings comparable to those used in the game but I have no knowledge of how the original ratings were arrived at. And on and on.

Other items have been worked out -- antipersonnel ratings for guns, antitank values, etc. All I can offer is that if a scenario designer needs a new piece of equipment, he can PM me and I'll help where I can. Designers can also PM JosAnt as he has thought deeply about the values and how they were derived.

Cheers

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RE: Equipment List? - 10/3/2019 5:05:12 PM

r6kunz

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It is remarkable the Norm Koger, the original designer came with fairly accurate values for the TOAW equipment.

Bob Cross and Tamas made a major improvement to using the database in TOAWIV; you can now make changes to the equipment values in EDITOR and then SAVE EQUIP. Now you have a new .eqp file for that scenario.

The newer .eqp values are not pulled out of the air.

But others such as JosAnt and Oberst_Klink have made major contributions to the equipment list.

The designers of FitE2 (Fire in the East), have created an incredibly detailed database. They were kind enough to give me permission to use it for my scenarios (Road to Moscow, Ardennes 1944...).

Each weapon system incorporates every imaginable parameter obtained from multiple sources. Think armor thickness, slope, and vehicle silhouette, gun range, rate of fire, shell weight, penetration...even optics. Ditto for individual squads.

Unfortunately, as the name of their scenario states, their data applies only to WWII East Front equipment (which includes Lend Lease), so it must be extrapolated for other countries. And, as far as I know, their databases have not been generally published. I obtained their permission to use it and I gave appropriate credit in the briefings.

One caveat for adopting a new .eqp file for your scenario. Each piece of equipment occupies a slot number in the .eqp. The game reads only what is in that slot. So if you want to add a German heavy machine gun (s.MG43) in the HMG slot, then every unit that had an HMG in the original scenario will now have an s.MG43, including Soviet units... So you place a Maxim in the MG (Early) slot, and all then Soviet units then must have the s.MG43 deleted and the Maxim added. Great when you create a new scenario from scratch, but a bit of a chore when you modify an existing large East Front scenario.

Another caveat, as much as you may disagree with some of Norm's original .eqp, the existing scenarios have created and balanced using these values, and changing them could imbalance the scenario.

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RE: Equipment List? - 2/5/2020 6:29:30 AM

DZKriz

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Thanks ;-).

I looked up the "Road to Moscow" scenarios to get the data I needed.

Still I wish that squad strengths be determined with some kind of a formula:

Number of men armed with personal weapons (rifles, muskets, pistols, SMGs)
Number of LMGs, HMGs, ATRs in the squad

AP, AA, AT factors for each of those weapons could be determined as with artillery (based on projectile weight, velocity, range, rate of fire)

Then one could add up the contributions of the constituent weapons present in the squad.

Dennis

< Message edited by DZKriz -- 2/5/2020 6:30:23 AM >

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RE: Equipment List? - 2/5/2020 1:59:51 PM

cathar1244

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quote:

Still I wish that squad strengths be determined with some kind of a formula:

Number of men armed with personal weapons (rifles, muskets, pistols, SMGs)
Number of LMGs, HMGs, ATRs in the squad

Make a system. Look at the values in the game now, they will give you the range of anti personnel values used for various squads. Those anti personnel values represent, by design, or effect, weights of fire in kilograms per minute. Make decisions about rates of fire you think are realistic.

Say you want to model a squad of nine men. Eight of the men carry bolt action rifles (10 rounds per minute).

One man carries the sub machine gun (300 rounds per minute).

Eight of the men carry anti personnel grenades.

Weights:

One projectile of rifle or light machine gun ammunition: 10 grams
One projectile of sub machine gun ammunition: 7 grams
Weight of a grenade: 630 grams

Calcs:

8 men times 10 rounds times 10 grams = 800 grams
1 man times 300 rounds times 7 grams = 2100 grams
8 men times 630 grams times 1 grenade = 5040 grams

Total the grams and divide by 1000 to get kilograms. This is your anti personnel rating (8 in this case).

Too high? Too low? Adjust rates of fire up or down; or, apply a factor to the calculated weight of fire. Let's say we think 8 is too high a rating for this kind of squad, so multiply all weights by 0.75. The modified anti personnel rating is now 6. (That matches the SMG Squad ratings in the standard database).

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/5/2020 2:01:46 PM >

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RE: Equipment List? - 2/5/2020 2:39:35 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

Still I wish that squad strengths be determined with some kind of a formula:

Number of men armed with personal weapons (rifles, muskets, pistols, SMGs)
Number of LMGs, HMGs, ATRs in the squad

Make a system. Look at the values in the game now, they will give you the range of anti personnel values used for various squads. Those anti personnel values represent, by design, or effect, weights of fire in kilograms per minute. Make decisions about rates of fire you think are realistic.

Say you want to model a squad of nine men. Eight of the men carry bolt action rifles (10 rounds per minute).

One man carries the sub machine gun (300 rounds per minute).

Eight of the men carry anti personnel grenades.

Weights:

One projectile of rifle or light machine gun ammunition: 10 grams
One projectile of sub machine gun ammunition: 7 grams
Weight of a grenade: 630 grams

Calcs:

8 men times 10 rounds times 10 grams = 800 grams
1 man times 300 rounds times 7 grams = 2100 grams
8 men times 630 grams times 1 grenade = 5040 grams

Total the grams and divide by 1000 to get kilograms. This is your anti personnel rating (8 in this case).

Too high? Too low? Adjust rates of fire up or down; or, apply a factor to the calculated weight of fire. Let's say we think 8 is too high a rating for this kind of squad, so multiply all weights by 0.75. The modified anti personnel rating is now 6. (That matches the SMG Squad ratings in the standard database).

Cheers

Precision would need to be figured in there, too. Aimed fire out of a rifle is more accurate than any individual bullet in a spray from a MG.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Equipment List? - 2/5/2020 4:48:42 PM

DZKriz

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Thank you! That makes a lot of sense!

Even that the numbers fall within the range of the current AP values of the squads currently listed.

I also like the model because then you can clearly define the squad based on the people (and their weapons) that make it up.

For instance, I was quite well down the line of setting up the scenario most dear to my heart -- what would have happened if the Czechs resisted the Germans in 1938 during the Sudeten Crisis -- and only recently realized that a "rifle squad" was assumed to include an LMG (I had added LMGs to the rifle squads on the Czech side, and was beginning to work on the German side). Now the Germans had the commanders of their squads carry SMGs. Would that make the German squads "SMG squad"s or would a SMG squad be assumed to composed of everyone carrying an SMG?

Further, each side had one or two people in their squads with rifle fired grenades. I had no idea before of how to include this into each side's squads' make ups. Now I do.

I will now arm the members of the squads with the weapons assigned to them and see how they look. If the numbers seem high or low, I can bring them up or down to make them align with the standard units already defined in the game. But there will be a "relative strength" to each other that will now be able to be modeled.

I have also now a better idea of how to deal with some of the heavy artillery that the Czechs had at the time (the German heavy artillery had to be destroyed after the Treaty of Versailles, while the Czechs had a fair amount of it left over from Austria Hungary, plus the weapons factories that made those weapons on its territory. So it had artillery that the Germans did not. (And one of the consequences of Nazi Germany's takeover of Czechoslovakia, largely without a shot, was that all these arms fell into the hands of the Germans who could then turn them against the Poles, French, English and Russians).

Anyway, thanks again ;-)

DZK

There of course, the shell weight could be large but the rate of fire low. I can see now

< Message edited by DZKriz -- 2/5/2020 5:41:04 PM >

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RE: Equipment List? - 2/6/2020 5:42:27 AM

cathar1244

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DZ,

Sounds like you have a plan. A few thoughts more --

➞ If you wish to model range as well (as mentioned by Bob above), use a multiplier against the anti personnel rating. The range of a light machine gun could be multiplier = 1.0, and then select multipliers for the other infantry weapons. A medium MG, for example, would be a multiplier greater than 1. The SMGs should be a multiplier less than 1 in this case as their true effective range was a lot shorter than rifles or light machine guns.

➞ I designed a World War II equipment database a long time ago. It may have most of the artillery pieces you're looking for. If you are looking for specific artillery pieces, let me know.

➞ If you are modeling divisions in your scenario, you will probably find detailed modeling of the squads is only a small effect on the combat results. You can investigate this using the scenario editor. Set up two scenarios. Both sides should have the same proficiency, supply, etc. In both scenarios the defender will be an infantry regiment, made up only of rifle squads. In one scenario, the attacker will be the same kind of regiment. (This is your infantry vs infantry scenario). In the second scenario, make the attacker an artillery battalion of 12 howitzers. (You may need an infantry unit adjacent to the defender to ensure the defender is "seen" by the artillery.) Run both scenarios at least 10 times. Keep track of losses each turn in a spreadsheet. Once you've done that, you'll have a rough idea of how lethal infantry versus infantry is, and how lethal the artillery strikes are.

Cheers

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RE: Equipment List? - 2/6/2020 3:04:32 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

➞ If you wish to model range as well (as mentioned by Bob above)...

Bob didn't mention range (although that's a legitimate issue). He mentioned precision. You can't take the weight of an artillery round and make a linear multiple to a rifle bullet's weight. The artillery round is just lobbed over a hill. The rifle bullet is via a telescopic sight.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 2/6/2020 3:41:08 PM >

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Equipment List? - 2/6/2020 5:30:08 PM

cathar1244

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

➞ If you wish to model range as well (as mentioned by Bob above)...

Bob didn't mention range (although that's a legitimate issue). He mentioned precision. You can't take the weight of an artillery round and make a linear multiple to a rifle bullet's weight. The artillery round is just lobbed over a hill. The rifle bullet is via a telescopic sight.

Depends on the piece and the projectile. Worth bearing in mind as well was what the "killers" were in World War II. Pretty much the artillery. Trying to work something like precision of a strike in the TOAW anti personnel model would be interesting, to say the least. But I'm all ears if you have a way to do it!

Cheers

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Post #: 19

RE: Equipment List? - 2/6/2020 5:52:07 PM

Curtis Lemay

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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

➞ If you wish to model range as well (as mentioned by Bob above)...

Bob didn't mention range (although that's a legitimate issue). He mentioned precision. You can't take the weight of an artillery round and make a linear multiple to a rifle bullet's weight. The artillery round is just lobbed over a hill. The rifle bullet is via a telescopic sight.

Depends on the piece and the projectile. Worth bearing in mind as well was what the "killers" were in World War II. Pretty much the artillery. Trying to work something like precision of a strike in the TOAW anti personnel model would be interesting, to say the least. But I'm all ears if you have a way to do it!

Cheers

What caused the most casualties tells one nothing about how lethal individual rounds were per kg.

TOAW already handles the difference between blind bombardments and observed bombardments. (Bombardment alone vs. Supporting Assaults is about x10).

But, in general, the relationship between weight of fire and lethality must be non-linear. Precision must factor into AP values - and it has been.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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