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Missing German pz Corp - 10/24/2019 11:55:31 PM

Michael T

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It appears that Germany starts the game with 2 Pz Corp.

Where are the rest? They should have 4.

The Germans went in to Poland with 7 Panzer XX, 5 Mot XX and 2 Light XX (they had a tank Reg and mot reg).

So assuming a Corp is 2 Panzer plus 1 Mot XX then we get more than enough for 4 Panzer Corp.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 12:08:40 AM

AlbertN

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I don't believe the game mirrors OOBs that strictly.
Infantry corps too then may be potentially short, if we work out how many divisions were there, and so forth.
That level of detail is for WITE style game.

Just see an armour unit like an armoured conglomeration, and same for the different corps, more like large, medium, small infantry sized group.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 12:19:16 AM

Michael T

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Well, either way, only having two mechanized units for the invasion of Poland on 30Km hexes is not enough. There is no sense of operational war. Even Third Reich, which the hexes were 80KM IIRC had 4 Pz Corp to in 39.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 12:20:21 AM

Michael T

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This just gives more weight to argue for splitting Mech Corp.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 1:02:45 AM

Essro

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Yeah, I noticed this to about the OOB. And yes, it bothered me but only marginally so.

Keep in mind how many mods and scenarios folks are likely going to make. If you are one to say "it should be perfect out of the box without me fiddling with it" then that's fine but I'd ask you, "do you clip your counters?" If so, whats the difference?

But I will say this: the operational feel in Poland was decent enough. More so than many (but not all I concede) of the boardgames. I mean really, name a Grand Strategy WW2 game where it had operational feel (breakthroughs, encirclements, etc). Not many. And those that did usually felt forced and out of place at that scale.

Don't get me wrong, I love AWAW/WiF and the others but the scale was never right. Most games were attrition heavy with densely packed hexes with no room for maneuver (AETO's counter density is so heavy I just couldn't do it any more, regardless of how much I like the game and I really did).

There is clutter here too, but less.

As far as armor corps breakdown. I was on the fence about this and so far I think it would be a huge mistake to allow it (I'll know more once I'm knee deep in Afrika). It's unnecessary. At this scale two panzer divs from the same corps would almost always be operating in the same "hex." Oh, and before one of you wiseguys wastes your time coming up with historical examples, don't bother. There are several that I can think of off the top of my head, and they are exceptions, not the rule. Otherwise disagree as much as you like. Be forewarned I won't engage.

As far as SC comparisons, I'll leave that to ya'll. I never liked any of the SC games beyond the first (and even that one was kinda silly).

I wish we could give Micheal T a copy of this game so we could see his opinion! Many of his thoughts and questions were similar to my own. I'd be curious to see opinion. Bear in mind too, this thing was 40 bucks--AWAW from GMT is 195 dollars right now. No joke.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 1:48:49 AM

Zovs

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In general a German Panzer corps would be 2-3 Panzer divisions and 1-2 motorized division or some combination of that mix. In general.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 1:51:38 AM

Zovs

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Yes you can take Poland out in one turn, I have done it several times. Except against John, the Greek, my nemesis...

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 2:06:08 AM

Titanwarrior89

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Missing Armor Korps...that doesn't cut it for me.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 2:33:30 AM

AlvaroSousa

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I used various sources on this.

This link explains it better than I can why there are only 2 Pz corps in Poland. This research is very legit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1BmJ_GF97w

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 3:03:08 AM

Michael T

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I just don't buy it. It goes against every wargame I have ever played on the matter.

I could accept 4 weaker Pz Corp. But 2 Mech units on a map this scale does not cut it for me.

It's not a game breaker. But I don't like it.

I will leave it at that.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 3:53:36 AM

AlvaroSousa

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You can always just change the scenario and save it under a different name if you like. That's why the editor is there. If you aren't happy with the current scenarios you can tweak them. If someone comes with a super popular scenario everyone loves I could make it part of the standard build.

And that is how I got started with SC2.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 4:36:53 AM

Essro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Missing Armor Korps...that doesn't cut it for me.

the irony of your complaint of an inaccurate OOB whilst sporting III Arm Corps from WiF is not lost on me.

We wargamers are a funny lot aren't we? I once threw a fit over a game that had AA units that were so powerful that they were used as the spearhead of my opponents attack. I said, "that's the dumbest **** I've ever seen." He said, "well, the German 88 was a real beast and its within the rules." To which, I replied, "yes, it was but that's not how they used them." He said, "that's how I'm using them." I replied by upending the map lol. Problem solved.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 4:58:17 AM

Michael T

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I hope I don't come across as being too negative. I only post here about this game because of a growing passion for it. And a wish for it to realize it's full potential.

I have a few funny stories of my own. Once when serving in the Navy my mate who I played ASL with got sick of me rolling great dice and gloating about my lucky dice. He promptly grabbed said dice and chucked them over the side in to the ocean.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 9:39:25 AM

incbob

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I have no problems with Germany only having two armor corps in 1939. I have no problem with this because I understand that what units are available depend upon scale and the concept of an armor corps.

People have pointed out that other games have more than 2 armor corps. Other games represent units in different ways and just because it was done in the past does not make it accurate.

People have pointed out that the 1939 German OOB had 4 Armor corps. This may be, but exactly how do you define an armor corp? All during the war units had names and terminology was used for them that did not truly represent their makeup. Several of the units listed in the actual German OOB would not be considered an armor corp just a few years later.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 9:52:40 AM

821Bobo

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I think two Panzer corps are just right. In Poland there were no 4 Panzer corps. Many of the Panzer divisions were assigned together with infantry divisions. Hard to simulate at this level unless you add additional "mixed" corps unit.
But there were, if I recall 3 corps in Poland that consisted purely from fast units(2 only with 2 divisions each). So maybe
adding one more but with reduced strength to 20/30 and reduce the one already on map to 20/30 too.

or

just go with the current disposition but add one more in to the deployment queue to simulate the forming of them without need to use production

or

just go with the current disposition but add one more to map with strength 0/30 to simulate the forming of them with need to use production but saving the time needed to build from scratch

Not sure if I make sense

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 10:05:21 AM

OxfordGuy3

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In Strategic Command: War in Europe (i.e. SC3) there are only two Panzer Corps available for the invasion of Poland BTW. I don't remember anyone having a problem with that.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 10:27:46 AM

Michael T

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Well if you accept that there were 7 Pz and 7 other Mot/Mech divisions for a total of 14 such units it's then simply what you accept as the right number of Pz/Mech/Mot divisions per Corp. Even if we say ok 4 divisions per Corp that's 3.5 Corps.

Simple math.

I could name at least half a dozen board games where Germany starts with 3 or 4 Pz Corp in 39.

IIRC somewhere in this forum the designer himself said each Pz Corp was 3 divisions.

I would be happy with 4 Corp with 15 strength out of 30 strength (so 50% strength) at full effectiveness. Then they could be reinforced over time.

But I have said enough on this. My point has been made.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 10:54:42 AM

gwgardner

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quote:

I would be happy with 4 Corp with 15 strength out of 30 strength (so 50% strength) at full effectiveness. Then they could be reinforced over time.

That might be the ideal solution, for a modder. However, the game system might pretty quickly fill out those four corps to full 30 strength - no doubt by the time for the invasion of France. Then the Germans would have too much panzer strength.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 10/25/2019 11:02:15 AM >

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 11:14:41 AM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Well if you accept that there were 7 Pz and 7 other Mot/Mech divisions for a total of 14 such units it's then simply what you accept as the right number of Pz/Mech/Mot divisions per Corp. Even if we say ok 4 divisions per Corp that's 3.5 Corps.

Simple math.

I could name at least half a dozen board games where Germany starts with 3 or 4 Pz Corp in 39.

IIRC somewhere in this forum the designer himself said each Pz Corp was 3 divisions.

I would be happy with 4 Corp with 15 strength out of 30 strength (so 50% strength) at full effectiveness. Then they could be reinforced over time.

But I have said enough on this. My point has been made.

I do understand your point. However I believe you are failing to take into account what was in those divisions. I can say I have an armored division, but if it has no tanks or it has tanks with only machine guns would you consider it to be a true armored division?

One of the issues is that when we look at the German army of 1939 we think about the German army of 1941-1943. Yes they had 7 Panzer divisions. How many of those divisions had tanks which were equipped with more than a machine gun? Does a division equipped with tanks that cannot do what tanks do count as an armored division? Does a division made of 75% foot infantry and 25% motorized infantry count as a motorized infantry?

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 11:56:14 AM

821Bobo

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The argument with tanks and machine guns is not valid. Check Panzer divisions TOE at the eve of Barbarossa. Still lot of Pz I/II in use. Also German tank doctrine was about breakthrough and not fighting other tanks, that was business for artillery.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 12:03:28 PM

Michael T

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Machine gun is all that is need against Polish Cavalry

I jest of course, but it's all relative.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 12:19:33 PM

OxfordGuy3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Machine gun is all that is need against Polish Cavalry

I jest of course, but it's all relative.

Poland had 150 of these:

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/polish/polish_7TP.php

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 12:32:34 PM

Michael T

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Germany had 2700 odd AFV. Many Hundreds with 37mm or better gun.

Besides, Stuka take care of those few tanks

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 2:29:03 PM

Ingtar

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Speaking of using the editor, I seem to be unable to figure out how to save any changes. Do you have to overwrite the initial scenario?

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 2:33:50 PM

Titanwarrior89

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Completely agree.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 2:35:26 PM

Titanwarrior89

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At this level and with the invasion of Poland you should not be missing a Corp.

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 2:52:18 PM

AlvaroSousa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ingtar

Speaking of using the editor, I seem to be unable to figure out how to save any changes. Do you have to overwrite the initial scenario?

You just enter in a new name in this location. I purposely leave it blank so players are self aware of what they are saving as so you don't override something else.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 4:19:31 PM

Montbrun

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I'm an OoB and ToE "geek." I have noticed glaring OoB omissions in all of the scenarios. I have to start fiddling with the Editor...

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 4:25:46 PM

James Taylor

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Well 2 armored corps use less oil than 4! Which brings me to a logical conclusion of tweaking oil usage. Shouldn't oil using units consume a fraction, based on max strength, of their oil factor if they are at reduced strength?

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RE: Missing German pz Corp - 10/25/2019 4:39:41 PM

OxfordGuy3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

Well 2 armored corps use less oil than 4! Which brings me to a logical conclusion of tweaking oil usage. Shouldn't oil using units consume a fraction, based on max strength, of their oil factor if they are at reduced strength?

That's certainly how it worked in Commander Europe at War, IIRC

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