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Withdrawl question - 11/4/2019 3:07:44 AM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		So if you take the first option for PP's do you lose all the planes and pilots?




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RE: Withdrawl question - 11/4/2019 12:19:29 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
Yes

You are looking at a group that is scheduled to permanently withdraw at some point.
(A very near withdraw date)

If you look at the group screen the withdraw button text will be in red.
That means the planes will be lost.

Groups that permanently withdraw take the planes and pilots with them and
They don’t return to the game. Mouse over to get fly outs.

You can gain points PP by taking these type groups out early.
They have to be within a certain range, under 60 days I think so they won’t reform.

The remove text color will go orange as indicated below.
Note the “P” in the text. “permanently”

The game does allow you to transfer pilots in or out of groups like this.
So you can transfer your pilots out before you withdraw.





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RE: Withdrawl question - 11/5/2019 1:04:04 AM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Thanks Trugrit. The second option, if you select no, says pilots and planes go to the pools.

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Post #: 3
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/5/2019 12:46:12 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
Sorry, my mistake. I made an assumption I should not have made.
I should have asked you for more information.
I should have asked you to look at your fly outs.

You may not lose the planes on withdrawal (even if it is in red) depending on their location.

This is more complicated than I indicated.
There are two things involved. Withdrawing and disbanding.
They kind of work the same way except for how the pilots are handled.
The manual explains this so I’m not going to try since I screwed it up once.

Then:
There is forced withdrawal and voluntary withdrawal.
There is forced disbanding and voluntary disbanding.

To make that more complicated there is also the group location.

Look at the group below. This is an early war group in Hong Kong.
If it is withdrawn the planes will be lost as indicated in the manual.

The manual is not correct in that red always tells you the planes will be lost.
That is not true every time.

As a general rule you want to use the mouse over to tell you what the deal is.





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RE: Withdrawl question - 11/5/2019 1:59:47 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
Hanzberger,

I’m still thinking about this.
Thinking can be dangerous in this game like in real life; that is why I love this game so much.

Ten years ago players were trying to figure this sort of stuff out.

Take a look at this chart:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3504602
You will notice that there are things in the chart that the OP was not sure of.

You need to also remember that this was in 2013 and this is 2019.
There have been updates since 2013 so the chart is not entirely correct anymore.

Posts on the forum are a snapshot in time.

The manual is not entirely correct anymore and it was not entirely correct on the day it was printed
but you can’t do without it, most of it is correct.

Now disbanding is for groups that permanently leave the game.
Disbanding can also be used for groups that don’t permanently leave the game.

Terminology can be confusing.
There a list that shows groups that must withdraw on a certain date.
In game you go to them and you can’t withdraw them because the withdraw is grayed out.
You have to disband them.

Some can withdraw and return. Some can withdraw and lose planes and keep pilots.
Some can withdraw and keep planes and pilots. Some can disband and lose both planes and pilots.
Some can disband and keep planes and pilots.
Sometimes planes can transfer to other groups, sometimes not.
Sometimes you can get PP’s, sometimes not depending on the situation.

Always depends on the situation.

My advice is watch the Fly outs in every situation.


(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 5
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/5/2019 8:35:09 PM   
DConn

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Bainbridge Island, WA
Status: offline 		But in response to the direct question asked, if you get the keep the planes and pilots, that will happen regardless of whether you get PPs for an early withdrawal; the two are not related. (FYI, I was pretty sure this was the case, but just tested it; withdrew a squadron of Hudsons early, got PPs and the planes/pilots went to the pools).

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Post #: 6
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/6/2019 10:11:54 AM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Ok sorry not sure how to post both pics, I just woke up gotta run to work.
Here is the first option, and if you click no, the next post screen shot pops up.




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Planning for #17 Ironman Tier2

Japan AC wire chart here
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Post #: 7
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/6/2019 10:12:26 AM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		after click no...




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_____________________________

Planning for #17 Ironman Tier2

Japan AC wire chart here
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286&mpage=1&key=?

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Post #: 8
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/6/2019 10:13:30 AM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		So something changed, I suppose its either planes or points...I think I will take option 2

_____________________________

Planning for #17 Ironman Tier2

Japan AC wire chart here
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286&mpage=1&key=?

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Post #: 9
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/6/2019 4:46:26 PM   
DConn

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Bainbridge Island, WA
Status: offline 		You can select "Yes" from the first screen, you will get PPs, and the planes/pilots will still go to the pools.

_____________________________

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Currently defending the free world against montesaurus, DBB-B, Scen. 28

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Post #: 10
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/7/2019 1:09:07 AM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DConn

You can select "Yes" from the first screen, you will get PPs, and the planes/pilots will still go to the pools.

Well that is the heart of my question. However I do not think that is correct, why would there be a second option?


_____________________________

Planning for #17 Ironman Tier2

Japan AC wire chart here
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286&mpage=1&key=?

(in reply to DConn)
Post #: 11
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/7/2019 3:24:18 AM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline 		One thing you need to understand is that you can move all of the pilots to reserve status. That means they will not go with the unit.

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Post #: 12
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/7/2019 6:30:20 AM   
Kursk1943

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger


quote:

ORIGINAL: DConn

You can select "Yes" from the first screen, you will get PPs, and the planes/pilots will still go to the pools.

Well that is the heart of my question. However I do not think that is correct, why would there be a second option?



My understanding: the logic behind the second question (not option!) is a "if you do this, then you have a certain consequence".
So, when you are asked if you want to withdraw and gain certain points, than you can decide between withdrawal and no withdrawal. If you decide in favour for withdrawal, you are confronted with the consequences of withdrawal and you are able to reconsider and change your "yes"-decision. The consequences can differ:
- pilots and planes go to the pool,
- planes are lost, pilots go to the pool,
- et cetera.

In your example you get the most positive consequence, you gain PPs and gain the pilots and planes for the pool.

So the second question is not a second option, but a chance to change your mind in consideration of possible consequences!


< Message edited by Kursk1943 -- 11/7/2019 6:34:26 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Withdrawl question - 11/7/2019 12:31:36 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
It can be another option. It may even go to a second screen.
You can sometimes hit escape to bring you entirely out of the sequence.

This game has a lot of depth to it and we have not reached the bottom in ten years.

In this case:
When we (players) think of an air group we think of the planes and the pilots.
The game does not think of it or treat it that way.

The game treats the planes and pilots and the group name (administrative core) as three separate things.

Planes and pilots come and go but the group name (administrative core) is permanent until
it is removed by the player, if it can be removed by the player, or the game.

When you withdraw or disband you are removing the name (core) from the game.
Sometimes temporary, sometimes permanent.
The game then may ask you (with Flyouts) what you want to do with the pilots and planes
because it sees them as separate things from the core and if you want to reform the group or get points….etc.

Or it may tell you (with flyouts) what it is going to do.

It can be confusing because most players don’t want to withdraw or disband a group so they
Will not do this very often and they don’t have much experience doing this. I don’t.
That is why I was wrong on my first response to the question.

Most players want the most air groups they can get on the map, because they use every group.
Even groups which are going to withdraw, are restricted and will never leave CONUS are
important because they use these groups to train pilots. They will not usually not withdraw
or disband them to get a handful of political points because pilot training is more critical than the points.

The important thing is to mouse over all the buttons and text options and read the flyouts that pop up.
The flyouts will guide you through the process. Use them!

Did I mention that you need to mouse over all the buttons and text options and read all the flyouts?
Please mouse over every button and text option and read all the flyouts.

That goes double for me.




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