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Supply question - 11/14/2019 4:55:22 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

Stockpile rules state the following:

quote:

Supply Stockpile � This amount determines how many strength points of units a supply source can supply. For each strength a land or air unit has, 1 stockpile is used to supply it. Main supply sources provide an unlimited
stockpile. Port supply sources provide 20 supply stockpiles per
port size level. Port supply increases in cost the farther it is from
the source. Oil dependent units cost 20% more supply stockpile
for every oil they use. When there isn�t enough supply stockpile
to supply a unit, the land or air unit only recover 3% of their
effectiveness but their full unit supply level. This represents getting
the bare minimum for the soldiers and local repairs of damaged
equipment using what is available. If a partial amount is recovered,
then the unit recovers effectiveness based on the ratio of what they
received from the stockpile relative to what they need.

Effectiveness rules state this:

quote:

Effectiveness Recovery � Map supply levels increase the
effectiveness recovery of a unit. Headquarters also increase the
effectiveness recovery of a unit. The base recovery is 6%. Each
map supply level adds 2% recovery. A unit within the range of a
headquarters adds another 4% to its recovery. Using a supply truck,
beachhead, or air transport supply option on a unit gains a base
recovery of 6% and +1 unit supply. A maximum of 34% effectiveness
may be recovered per turn. A unit can benefit from only one HQ
per turn.

So if a unit uses a supply truck, isn't it supposed to be considered in full supply for effectiveness recovery? If so it isn't working that way in game.

In my AAR game I've been burning supply trucks like mad but it seems my units only recover single digit levels of effectiveness even though most are sitting on a rail hex that says its supply level 9.

If 6% is the best a unit can hope for when stockpiles are zero, it can take half a year and a dozen supply trucks for a unit to recover enough effectiveness to continue an attack (12 trucks per individual unit, more if they are armor, mech or air units). This is nuts, the allies spent less than a year knocking Germany out in the west after D-Day, that is impossible given how it works right now.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 11/14/2019 5:27:12 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 6:24:04 PM

AlvaroSousa

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6% is a static # in this case.

If you are at 10% effectiveness you are at 16%
if you are at 100% effectiveness you are at 106%

it isn't escalating based on what you don't have like main or port supply. It is a set amount of extra supplies.

Basically units with less effectiveness get more under main and port supply because more is broken or worn or in need.

Truck supply is extra emergency supply. Thus why it costs PPs to make them and main and port supply don't cost anything.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
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- Assault on Communism SC2
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(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 2

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 6:36:47 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

When there isn�t enough supply stockpile
to supply a unit, the land or air unit only recover 3% of their
effectiveness but their full unit supply level.

Is this a hard cap then? 3% plus another 6% for a truck and no other recovery allowed?

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 11/14/2019 6:37:44 PM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 3

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 7:10:40 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Joined: 7/29/2013
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Yes. This prevents a tiny port from supplying a massive invasion.

If you want it to then you need to dump supplies on the beach and it still won't be good enough in the long run.

It is what makes the North African Campaign way more realistic. Even D-Day needs to be planned because the Allies can't supply a mountain of units as effectively as they should as they push into France until Antwerp is taken. As it was historically. Lots of depth.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 4

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 7:38:50 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
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From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

This is from my most recent post in my AAR:

quote:

It looks like my impression that my units were not recovering any effectiveness in Africa is spot on. As you can see most air units were at the same level of effectiveness they ended the turn with before. One unit recovered a bit which means it probably drew supplies from port. Two lost some, but that was due to the air attack, fighter flew cap and bomber suffered loss.

So it looks like the most a unit can recover is 6% if you spend trucks on it. 2 trucks per turn for air, armor and mech, 1 for inf.

III Fighter Grp......was 58% now 63%
IV Bmbr Grp..........was 74% now 74%
VIII Air Support Grp.was 39% now 39%
I Fighter Grp........was 41% now 39%
II Bmbr Grp..........was 10% now 10%
III Bmbr Grp.........was 65% now 65%
IV Fighter Grp.......was 52% now 52%
IX Tactical Air Grp..was 24% now 20% Grp attacked by air.
III Tactical Air Grp.was 16% now 16%

So it appears the most a unit can recover per turn overseas is 6% if you spend a truck on it. No HQ bonus, no minimum 3%. So a unit that is reduced to 40% after a tough fight needs 10 turns or 5 months to get back to 100%. That is far too extreme, the allies went from France to Germany in 10-11 months, and most units replaced their paper strength 4-6 times in that period.

How are we supposed to do that if it take 5 months to recover from 1 battle?

Jim

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 5

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 8:32:23 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Joined: 7/29/2013
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No unit EVER was always at 100%. Even Kursk the Germans had broken down tanks before the start of the battle.

The African ports can only hold so much supply for Rommel or he would have overrun the Allies. On the other hand all the Egyptian ports had plenty of capacity.

D-Day the Allies had problems with supply as they moved in.

This is a game of logistics also which creates a far greater strategy then just putting 4 panzer corp in Libya and blowing through UK defenses.

You can shut down ports with blockade also.

So right here the above list is ~3500 planes. I assume this is the Tunisia area. Realize the Axis have the same problem. I looked at the snap shot.

So you have a bunch of under supplied, under strength units that are fighting other units of the same. Did you ever consider breaking down some and lowering your supply footprint. Or attack Sardinia and get a large air base to help in Tunisia. Lot's of options. Also you are the USA you easily out truck the Axis.

I'll have to look at these AARs.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 6

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 9:28:37 PM

AlbertN

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
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I agree the recovery of Efficiency seems quite low.

And that affects too fighter interception. Fighters in Germany, in capital cities intercept a turn yes and two not pratically.
And that should be maximum efficiency recovery with a HQ in range, and in a supply source (which I assume is worth 10 supply).

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 7

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 10:08:07 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
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It's not Africa that has me concerned, it's the continent. The fact Germany can recover 34% or near that every turn and the allies are limited to just 6% means that even if the allies land a much better force, all Germany needs to do is constantly attack it to drive down efficiency.

Then Germany wins the efficiency race at 28% per turn and ultimately destroys whatever is ashore, even if they are a weaker force overall.

I'd say let trucks recover 16%. That still gives a well supplied opponent a 2-1 recovery advantage. And units worn down by combat will be back up and running after a month or two, which is more historically accurate.

The system as implemented now makes invasion troops good for perhaps 2 or 3 tough fights a year, that is too limiting in my opinion.

Or perhaps a better system would make trucks a diminishing return, so say they boost a unit by x and x is greater the lower the overall efficiency. So they help units stay alive, but they don't make it easy to get to top efficiencies. I'd even be in favor of capping trucks to not allow them to grow a unit beyond say 80%. It's the inability to get out of the low end of efficiency that makes the system a liability right now.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 11/14/2019 10:13:32 PM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 8

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 10:23:38 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Allies aren't limited to less.

Main supply provides unlimited stockpile.
Ports provide limited stockpile.

So you have to balance what you put in there. That's all.

If you invade France with a reasonable force you will be fine. It will get slightly tougher later but you will still be fine.

But you can't buy 20 armor and 10 ground support and invade with them. Those units simply take too much supply.

In your Tunisia you had a lot of units. In reality the Allies only had I think 3 corps total. I would have converted a couple corps to divisions to cover my defensive positions and took the stronger with more supply units to attack the Italians. They can't recover effectiveness as fast because they are over supply limit.

With terrain you would be fine.

As an example. WarPlan will make you think about your balance of forces constantly.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 9

RE: Supply question - 11/14/2019 10:39:40 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

Again Africa is not the problem, both sides are under the same rules. It's on the continent where one side recovers 34% and the other is capped to 6% (12 on the coast if that can stack with naval supply). Once the 6% side is driven down to the low 30's to 40's they will lose the recovery race and die.

A level 6 port can supply 4 infantry units. No way a tiny force like that can stand up to a 1944 tech fully supplied German army that can rotate in dozens of corps against your tiny foothold if needed. You need to land with significant force, but since you can't direct the 4 corps worth of supplies to front line troops and rely on where the AI decides to send it, chances are 6% is all you get along your front.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 11/14/2019 10:41:39 PM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 10

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 12:04:57 PM

gwgardner

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Joined: 4/7/2006
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Both sides get the same effectiveness recovery, if they're in full supply. Has nothing to do with truck supply.

In the case '44 in France, the Allied player has to add up all the port supply available, compare that to the strength points of all units relying on that port supply, to determine whether the units are are full supply.

Look at the port capacity, multiply each point of capacity by 20, to determine how many strength points it will support at full supply.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 11/15/2019 12:09:11 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 12:17:20 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Both sides get the same effectiveness recovery, if they're in full supply. Has nothing to do with truck supply.

In the case '44 in France, the Allied player has to add up all the port supply available, compare that to the strength points of all units relying on that port supply, to determine whether the units are are full supply.

Look at the port capacity, multiply each point of capacity by 20, to determine how many strength points it will support at full supply.

I thought that I was done taking Math tests!

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Tony

(in reply to gwgardner)

Post #: 12

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 1:03:31 PM

gwgardner

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Don't need to do the math. Make a simple estimate in your mind, after looking at the available port capacity. If you have large ports, you can have more units. Small ports, less.

The system is one of the beauties of Warplan. It's the first wargame at this level that I've played, which allowed for a semi-realistic African campaign. A Western Front Campaign in France is fraught with supply constraints, as historically it was.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 11/15/2019 1:26:33 PM >

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 13

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 1:15:17 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Joined: 7/29/2013
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What GW says.

It isn't hard. If all the ports in France have 0 stockpile you know you are over your limit and some units are getting reduced recovery.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
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- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 14

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 3:32:53 PM

MOS96B2P

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Joined: 2/7/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

In the case '44 in France, the Allied player has to add up all the port supply available, compare that to the strength points of all units relying on that port supply, to determine whether the units are are full supply.

Look at the port capacity, multiply each point of capacity by 20, to determine how many strength points it will support at full supply.

A follow-up question to see if I understand the supply of land units through a port.

Tobruk is a size 4 port.
So if the port is in full supply it can support up to 80 land & air unit strength points.
When I hold the mouse cursor over Tobruk it reads: Port Supply 23 of 80. (The 23 is in blue. I think I have also seen red numbers)

Does this mean 57 supply points have been interdicted? Or does it mean 57 supply points are being used by friendly forces and 23 are still available for use? Or maybe it means something else?

If the numbers are ever red (IIRC) what does that mean? (I'm sure it's probably something bad)

(in reply to gwgardner)

Post #: 15

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 4:06:12 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
No unit EVER was always at 100%.

FWIW, that is the argument for paratroops not needing to be at 100% to be eligible for airdrop. 90% should be fine.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 16

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 6:43:47 PM

AlvaroSousa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MOS96B2P

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

In the case '44 in France, the Allied player has to add up all the port supply available, compare that to the strength points of all units relying on that port supply, to determine whether the units are are full supply.

Look at the port capacity, multiply each point of capacity by 20, to determine how many strength points it will support at full supply.

A follow-up question to see if I understand the supply of land units through a port.

Tobruk is a size 4 port.
So if the port is in full supply it can support up to 80 land & air unit strength points.
When I hold the mouse cursor over Tobruk it reads: Port Supply 23 of 80. (The 23 is in blue. I think I have also seen red numbers)

Does this mean 57 supply points have been interdicted? Or does it mean 57 supply points are being used by friendly forces and 23 are still available for use? Or maybe it means something else?

If the numbers are ever red (IIRC) what does that mean? (I'm sure it's probably something bad)

23 supply is what is left at the port.

oil use units use +20% more stockpile per strength than non oil use units. And no it's not ever read that I remember.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to MOS96B2P)

Post #: 17

RE: Supply question - 11/15/2019 6:44:35 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I found out why players were losing their mind with paratroopers. I suspect they weren't keeping them at the highest map supply level or moving them.

I found it easy to get a paratrooper to 100%.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 18