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Open Beta!!! - 7/9/2003 2:13:23 AM   
puff_daddy_58_9

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 7/9/2003
From: St. Catharines, Ontario, CANADA
Status: offline 		Ok - first, i'm a newb here, so don't flame because I am.

2nd - I really think an open beta would help the designers, once the first round of betas is completed. It was said that they are working on the game mainly now, not the AI. An open beta would be able to substantially increase the AI's abilities, by combining all possible strategies all of us have.

EX - the current game i'm in has GB, russia, prussia, and austria vs. France. That's a different strategy. All minors are taken, and it's only 1808. Many others have wild and unique strategies, which could make the AI better, and more adaptible to different situations.

Please open up the game as open beta, so we can help the development of the game we have been waiting for!!
Post #: 1
Hold on a moment.... - 7/9/2003 7:25:33 AM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Napoleonics are my passion and I would have loved to apply to be a beta tester for this game. I mean, I got goose-bumps when I saw the announcement. I just didn't have the time with my job and my marriage and all to give it the justice it deserved.

I feel that Matrix Games must have a plan. I do not think that they would've even started this project without one. They're not an alphabet soup agency and they're certainly not "men in black" out to just fool us about alien intervention in 1812. I just know that Zeta Reticulans must've helped the Russians. ;)

I voted no because I trust them. Look at Marshall's posts and you'll see a dedicated guy. This honestly appears to be an effort of love for him.

Steady as she goes Matrix Games. You're doing alright.

Alright that is, except we need some current screenshots.

Pretty please. :)

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 2
Halt the charge big guy - 7/9/2003 7:49:06 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		As someone who has been here for 8 months watching the growth and interaction I say let Matrix call the shots. I also want the game faster than an open beta would take.

As to an AI for a game like this, good luck if you hope for much more than a training tool. This game has gotta have humans to make it compelling.

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 3
- 7/9/2003 2:21:27 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		[B]Beta testing[/B]

I would like to see the game to be able to comment on strategies, setups and etc. But since I was to late, I will just try to give an opinion or two.

These are the topics I would like to have information on:

1) What kind of diplomatic options are available? The game is made on the principles of diplomacy. The winner of a war is normaly the one best prepared for it with allies. There should be a lot of "if I do this, you do that" options in the interface. Not just allied, neutral or at war. The AI must be able to see through your little tricks. For instance it should be impossible for a two player game, ex. Austria and Prussia working together like this. Prewar diplomacy - declare war between them. Starting turns, Prussia declares war on minor close to Austria and Austria (being at war with Prussia) takes control over these nations. Then Austria does vice versa. Next turn the declare peace and becomes allies. Ooops the allied Austria-Prussia became large fast and without casualties. There should be a way to avoid this in "extreme". With players this never happens...

2) What are the basics behind the setup of troops?

3) What are the basics behind movement of troops?

4) What are the basics behind the declaration of war against minor countries?

5) How is Matrix thinking about all these "options" we are talking about? Is it interresting or just to time consuming?

6) Last, yes more screen shots would be nice, please from the diplomacy screen...

Once again thank you for your time.

_____________________________

John Umber

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 4
- 7/9/2003 3:26:13 PM   
Ross Moorhouse


Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		We have only ever done an open beta once. That was on a patch for UV. Some of those testers are now under an NDA and working on WitP.

As a rule we do not do open betas on a full game. Why? Because we don't. If other game companies want to thats fine for them.

So you can have a poll in this thread but thats as far as it will go. :)

Opening the game up to heaps of input only delays its developement. Sure people can say that we should take all the time in the world to develope but you also have to consider that like other companies we need to have income so we have to get games out the door.

We appreicate your concern but rest assured all of our testers are old hands at the orginal game. Thats why we ask the question about having played the board game. ;)

_____________________________

Ross Moorhouse

Project Manager
www.csosimtek.com
Email: rossm@csogroup.org

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 5
- 7/9/2003 3:41:46 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		[B]Answer to Ross Moorhouse[/B]

I agree with you on the topics regarding the open beta.
Time and money are what makes the company and that is the rule we all live by. No matter what field we work in.

The questions raised above are more to be considered as "still pictures" of the game that we can make comments on. Not the game itself. If using a open beta version, we would never see the finished product this year or the next.

It is just a simple wish to help imporving the game if possible.

Thank you for answering the question.

_____________________________

John Umber

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 6
- 7/9/2003 3:57:50 PM   
Ross Moorhouse


Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		By all means guys post your suggestions in this forum. The testers are allowed to chat about the game as they test it on the open forums. They know what they can say.

Open betas also lead to pirate version on street side tables in Hong Kong ... Something we want to avoid at all costs.

_____________________________

Ross Moorhouse

Project Manager
www.csosimtek.com
Email: rossm@csogroup.org

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 7
- 7/9/2003 4:22:17 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		That I can understand fully.

I cannot wait until this game is ready and available.
The original table top game is one of the best strategy games I have ever played (including the computer games) and I played quite a few. My expectations are thus extremly high.

Yours truly

_____________________________

John Umber

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 8
- 7/9/2003 8:54:42 PM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ross Moorhouse
[B]By all means guys post your suggestions in this forum. The testers are allowed to chat about the game as they test it on the open forums. They know what they can say.

Open betas also lead to pirate version on street side tables in Hong Kong ... Something we want to avoid at all costs. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ross Moorhouse,

Yes, I am with you on the open beta thing. Piracy sucks. You guys have a perfect right to protect your investment.

And now for something completely different.....

If you'll notice above, John Umber has echoed the need for current screenshots, as he put it: "still pictures" of the game that we can make comments on.'

This would be an excellent idea. Some of the screenshots that have been posted in the past are almost ancient. Some show some real nice work on the map that deserves appropriate accolades.

What does this game look like? We would like to know. OR -as you put it above, are scrrenshots "... Something we want to avoid at all costs"[/B] too??? If I am misunderstanding you guys by misreading your actions, please correct me.

It makes sense to show screenshots, you know. Sometimes something can be missed until its too late.

The way that I look at it is that our suggestions have been solicited in the past and we have helped without reservation. (We will continue to help when asked in the future. On that there is no doubt.)

Now, it is our turn to ask you for your help. Can we some current screenshots, please? Thanks in advance. :)

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 9
- 7/9/2003 11:58:51 PM   
timewalker03

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/9/2003
From: Omaha, NE
Status: offline 		after the game is released will there be a forum for the gamers who buy it to comment on the game and suggest changes or even upgrades for the game. I understand that only the best suggestions would be taken and used but would there be rule updates, game updates then available in patches.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 10
- 7/10/2003 12:28:05 AM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ross Moorhouse
[B] Thats why we ask the question about having played the board game. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

99.9 percent of folk who will buy the game would never had played the boReD game, why's it so important to the majority to make an unflexable PC conversion...

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 11
- 7/10/2003 3:27:22 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Nobody has suggested a 100% replica but there are those that think the base game should be very close with options for all that extra fun :)

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 12
- 7/10/2003 5:33:15 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ross Moorhouse
[B]We have only ever done an open beta once. That was on a patch for UV. Some of those testers are now under an NDA and working on WitP.

As a rule we do not do open betas on a full game. Why? Because we don't. If other game companies want to thats fine for them.

So you can have a poll in this thread but thats as far as it will go. :)

Opening the game up to heaps of input only delays its developement. Sure people can say that we should take all the time in the world to develope but you also have to consider that like other companies we need to have income so we have to get games out the door.

We appreicate your concern but rest assured all of our testers are old hands at the orginal game. Thats why we ask the question about having played the board game. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]


Well, to take less time and put out a bad game and then charge people 60 bucks (which by the way is a heap of money), would really suck and would certainly make it so I would never buy another game from you ever again, which, in the long run, would just hurt your income. As far as the people who are doing the testing, as a software developer, I always want a wide range of people testing any of my code. The wider range of people, the better the testing will go. If you only get people who know how to play the game already, then how will you know how someone who has never played the game will mesh with the software? This is like saying, to do this press this. But what if they don't press this? then what? Or if someone doesn't know the rules and tries to do something outside of the rules, how is your code going to act then? This method of experienced only, I don't understand. I applied to be beta tester, so I am a little bit bitter, since I have played the game about a zillion times and read the rule book more than a priest has read the bible, but anyways.

Good luck in the development and I await the release in dire pain. :)

ps. For the purposes of this poll, I voted for an open beta, as to me, it makes much more sense as a developer, but probably not as a businessman. Oh, well.

_____________________________


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Post #: 13
- 7/11/2003 4:49:04 PM   
Wynter

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 1/10/2003
From: Belgium
Status: offline 		Ryta,

I'm a software developer too, and it is our company's policy to minimize the number of testers for our software. We just take a well mixed representation of the people our software is intended for, and let them play around for a while. This has a more than satisfying result.
And being involved in the testing and supervising of testing of already quite some of our products, you can rest assure that the EiA testing is in good hands :D .
No, really, we are pushing all the buttons and doing things a player normally wouldn't do (f.ex. ally with yourself, ally with an ally...). We 'll make sure EiA is 'monkey-proof'. :rolleyes:

Jeroen.

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 14
Testing - 7/12/2003 6:20:51 AM   
trw2264

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/18/2002
Status: offline 		I know that the beta-testers are not perfect, but I can tell that as I type this I am putting units into every zone and moving them around and looking for other bugs. We are trying!

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 15
- 7/12/2003 6:45:39 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think that these forum post was to insult the beta testers or Matrix Games. I think the creator was giving his opinion about open Beta testing, asking if it was possible, and looking for reasons why not. I am sure that all the Beta Testers are doing their best as is Matrix Games. Personally, I appreciate everyone and everything that is going into the creation of this game and hope for a soon arrival. :)

As far as the Poll results, I am sure those 9 are Beta Testers. Although I am not sure why they would want to "keep it a secret", unless they felt special or something by getting the first look. I don't know why anyone who isn't out to lose money on the project would be against Open Beta Testing. Oh well. :)

_____________________________


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Post #: 16
Er, huh? - 7/12/2003 7:12:14 AM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryta1203
[B]......................

As far as the Poll results, I am sure those 9 are Beta Testers. Although I am not sure why they would want to "keep it a secret", unless they felt special or something by getting the first look. I don't know why anyone who isn't out to lose money on the project would be against Open Beta Testing. Oh well. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not a beta tester, I'm not out to lose money and I already said that I voted no. I've stated my reasons why.

The beta-testers are special. They're doing what some of us can't, which is to help give us a great Napoleonic game.

We have to trust sometime and I trust them even though I don't know who they are. I cheer them on and thank them for their hard work.

I do think that there is one thing that will help relieve the pressure and that is to give us some CURRENT SCREENSHOTS real soon. :)

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 17
- 7/12/2003 7:36:38 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		The problem with quotes is that people don't qoute the whole post sometimes. I also stated that I appreciate everyone who is putting hard work and time into this project. Don't think I don't appreciate them. As for the poll, I guess I was wrong, sorry. Although I don't understand your reason for voting no, (not that any of our votes matter, lol :)) but ok. :)

_____________________________


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Post #: 18
Misunderstanding - 7/12/2003 11:57:09 AM   
trw2264

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/18/2002
Status: offline 		Guys, please don't take what I said as whining or anything like that. I meant it in a positive way in that I would like to know that I helped to catch some bugs before the final release that is all and that I was getting on the stick to help make that happen. That was all.

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 19
- 7/24/2003 6:04:14 AM   
puff_daddy_58_9

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 7/9/2003
From: St. Catharines, Ontario, CANADA
Status: offline 		I really do think It should be open beta (hence why I made the poll!)

Matrix people - I understand your reasoning. It would be a lot of information to digest in this critical stage of development.

Let me then suggest a stress test of the engine and AI once it is completed. Something like 1 month before release, or 2-3 weeks before going gold.

This would allow for last minuite changes, alterations, and improvements. The major design would also be done at that point, so the developpers would not be too busy to handle all the suggestions.

Perhaps this is just useless wishing and praying, but I am DYING to play this!! I also applied for beta, and although I have played many games (in one currently!!), I was turned down.

Bitter? :( No

Wanting to see the game finally? :D YES!!!

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 20
- 7/24/2003 8:42:35 AM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Agree 100% with Ross. I suppose some posters on here don't know what the wargame biz is all about. Many, many sales will be to people who want to piddle with the game and perhaps never really get into it. Give them an "open beta" to d/l, and you give them the experience they're looking for with the full game. A "demo" should be very limited; not an "open beta" thing.

Most "open betas" I've seen are in the MMORPG area where server endurance and the "massive" part of the game gets a little test. Those make sense b/c they last for a month or two, endure frequent "character wipes" and deny the player the "full experience".

Also, beta testing is, IIUC, a phase where players "test" the rules for functionality; not try to redesign the game or "make it better". I would not like that going on too much in ANY beta test of any wargame. Too many chefs.

The immediate post publication period has traditionally, with computer wargames, been the period where certain issues and refinements are discovered and made. That is what we've come to expect. An "open beta" would, essentially, be the post publication period w/o publication.

I believe Matrix knows what it's doing here, and we've all been haggling about certain rules and things for months. Game design isn't a democracy. Nor do I wish it to be. If it's a bad game, Matrix will be the party to suffer the most. They've seen companies' actions prior to their own formation. They know what they're dealing with.

Have some confidence in Matrix to do things right. They have so far with products I've bought (just about all).

(in reply to puff_daddy_58_9)
Post #: 21
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