Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

Nobody is questioning who made the changes and why. Not me for sure. And it's far from me accusing somebody of wrongdoing. Still, I cannot believe that any vaguely competent Japanese player can play for 600 turns without realising that the economy got these heavy changes. I can believe that for, I dunno, Manpower. I never check it. I take data also from it but in theory I wouldn't need.
Doing everything by hand (well... Technically on Excel...) I could have missed it if I wouldn't have taken the info.

But for such an essential element like OIL... C'mon.


Again, it's a matter of being the most incompetent Japanese player ever, and I don't think so, or not saying a word about these additional resources. Also because, in theory, those "much lower initial stocks" should have brought somebody to check how much is this "much lower". And playing with a constant control of these stocks.
I have yet to see somebody who stretches the economy a lot and never checks it.

It's like driving on the highway well faster than car's safe limits.
Blindfolded.
Under LSD.
On the wrong direction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I do too Brian, I have to wonder about all the Japanese players that had experience in stock scenarios who did not notice that
the oil output was higher. I can see John not realizing it since I doubt he has played or looked at a stock scenario for over
9 years. But apparently a lot of people want to tar and feather John over this. John started his firs RA mod in March 2010.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Ship research, design, modifications, and possibilities fire my imagination. If you truly know me--and it is obvious many in this thread do NOT--you will know that I am about tactics, strategy, ships, the historical figures (ie Yamamoto). You might notice the economy, oil/fuel, and other crap does not. I've left that to others on the team to work on. Ask Michael how well I do installing and using Tracker! My economy is always on the knife's edge of collapse.

quote:



2. Over the years there have been many people, as already stated, that have stirred the pot in these Mods. Their time, energy, and commitment are to be commended--not eviscerated by the mob--and I thank each and every one of them for their outstanding work and dedication. Mistakes can happen and have happened over the years. Each time we have set off to correct or modify the issue that was found.

To be clear. I am the creator of this Mod's vision and the buck stops here. I own ANY mistakes here whether I made them or someone else over the last near decade of time.

3. We are doing a comprehensive overhaul of BTS that will then move on to Treaty, RA, and then shorter scenarios.

4. How does one respond to this?

One of the two: either you are the most incompetent Japanese player who has ever been in the forum, and I don't believe so, or saying that you haven't noticed the massive increase in oil production for over 600 turns is, at least, dubious.


To the many other people who have played as the Japanese then, evidently, you are 1. most incompetent Japanese players OR 2. a dubious (?lying?) player of our Mods because you haven't noticed these expressed issues. I think we have had some fine players play both sides and they have gotten a great experience while never feeling this way.


There is a major difference between constructive criticism and personal attack. Do not understand what draws this but others have experienced it. I can remember when several major personalities have walked away for a long period of time due to issues here on the Forum. We need to be watchful of ourselves and what we do/say. This game is a magnificent achievement that have brought a number of amazing people together to form a dynamic and wondrous community. The game, as the community, is not perfect but it is close.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Ok.

I think there might be a heavy basic mistake in the assessment of Japanese industrial capacity in this MOD.

A couple of months ago I was giving advice to an Italian player on the Italian forum who had troubles in grasping Japanese economy.

Now, he was in April 42 (first week of it) playing BTS-Heavy. I guess something changes from Lite but the description given in the website is the same regarding economy.



Well. In the website it's stated that there are "far less initial stocks". It's somehow a lie.

I don't use tracker and I play only Scen1. In my last two games as Japan, I begun to do standardized monthly checks on Excel. I have them for each month, registering stocks, production, gain/loss over last month, gain/loss over 7th dec and changes in percentage.

I compared them with the guy's industrial screens.

Please note that he conquered the historical perimeter plus useless Pacific islands, plus Aleutinans. No industrial base from those conquests. He got stuck in China conquering just the plains between Hankow and Nanyang.
NOTHING MORE.
He has taken many oilfields badly damaged as far as I have understood (and seen from industrial screen).
Little to none HI expansion.


What I did understand analysing his industrial screens is that:
- Japan begins with 3-400k less fuel in the initial stock
- There are way more HI/LI/OIL in Japanese hands
- Supplies are the same


To make a comparison of the magnitude of the "more HI" thing. I compared the data of guy's game to mine of my 2 Japanese PBEMs.
Results:
- Conquering the WHOLE India (bar Karachi), plus China, netted me roughly the same amount of his HIs. (16.000)
- Conquering EVERY oilfield basically intact (bar Miri which starts with 150 damage) and repairing Miri netted me roughly 31.500-32.000 OIL production [from the industrial screen]. He got MORE than 32.000 without China, India, Miri repaired and with many oilfields trashed. Potential production, including "disabled" was well above 38.000.
- Conquering the WHOLE Australia (bar Sidney and Tasmania) netted me way less HI. Don't make me speak about LI and OIL because I would simply start crying in a corner.
- Running the whole freaking IJN boosted by dozzilions of ships for 30 days per months, apparently, still makes possible to have a nice positive FUEL production. I am in red whenever I decide to run continuous operations. My rule of thumb after I complete my intended strategic goals is to have the whole surface fleet disbanded 20 days per month at minimum and the KB disbanded 15 days per month at minimum. He didn't even optimised cargo classes. And he was gaining A LOT of fuel (+ 15.000 accordingly to his tracker. Dunno what that amount means since I don't use tracker).



Now, it's true that more HIs, more pilots and more ships imply a much higher fuel consumption. But I haven't seen that in his game.
It's true that I have done very tough fights in both the PBEMs for which I recorded economical info. But I had also conquered a lot.
It's true that this is a fantasy MOD while I'm a "scen1 purist". But, at least in his case, the entire "much lower initial stock" thing is a plain lie.



I might be completely wrong under every possible point of view, since the guy was playing BTS-H, but I am fairly sure of what I say about it. I mean, he posted his economy so there isn't much to doubt about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

I will take the blame for ALL economic mistakes, incomitance, stupidity, etc. Things were done years ago for various reasons that I cannot totally recall at this time. Even if I attempt to explain why changes were made, it seems they are not good enough for the critics of this mod. John can make posting on the subject here, but not me. I will continue to work with John on this mod to improve it for those who are interested in playing it.

Last night I pulled up the Editor for the new master version and then did the same for DBB scenario 28. I went through bases in Japan and rest ALL to what was there. In my further work with the mod I WILL NOT touch anything else with the economy to keep the purist at bay.

Gone, but not forgotten.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

...exactly what I am afraid of...

If you didn't notice within Michael's (NYGiants) Post above, he is done being on the Forum for a while.

Chilling is the effect we're talking about here.

I have cleaned out my PM box. Sorry about it being full!

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

...exactly what I am afraid of...

If you didn't notice within Michael's (NYGiants) Post above, he is done being on the Forum for a while.

Chilling is the effect we're talking about here.

I have cleaned out my PM box. Sorry about it being full!

It's odd that after so much work on this mod critique is thought of as rude, and attacking. As I read the comments the majority ask what is going on with increased oil/resources and why it's not mentioned in the notes about the scenario. I called it a joke, but I hope you can see why I would say that. If Japan had so much oil and so many resources, would they have risked Pearl Harbor?

Since you've decided on a match with Dan (and apparently he has accepted) which as you say would have a large following, doesn't it make sense to have everything on the table before that one begins? As you said earlier, that's what this thread is about.

Everything going on in Anachro's AAR is about that game, the different strategic playing field he is now encountering since he suddenly has become aware of Japan's increased oil/resources production and what that means.

Michael keeps talking about blame. Who cares? It's not about who did what, and apparently no one knows anyway. It is about what is in the mod and how that is communicated to those who play it on both sides.

I hope Michael will reenter the discussion, but if not, that's his decision. We're all adults here.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Obvert--Thank You--I think we just demonstrated this by his going thru the Home Islands and taking them to the correct numbers from the original DaBabes. As I said just a bit ago, the files will come back and I will Post the changes here and why within Mod justification.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

The tinkering of economy in response to HI was done as I didn’t know it was possible to adjust input requirements. Brian and I did a restart into late 42 before discovering there were still issues. I had a learning curve on the Editor for some issues. I accidentally stumbled upon how to change rookie pilot experience during this tinkering. Still learning on Editor as I use it infrequently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
What issues? If you want someone to understand, please state the details. Was the increased economy too robust to exist on stock oil and resources centres? Were the issues involving crashing the economy?

I earlier voiced concern about one of these versions after the George became CV capable and I looked into the mod. With a cursory look around I noticed a few of the oil centres on Java were increased, some resource centres. I never thought to look on the Home Islands.

I did voice to John that this was inaccurate as Japan actually didn't even get the capacity out of the Dutch oil that the devs gave us players in stock. So to add more seemed like real cheese. To add them in the Home Islands is really taking the piss and becomes a HUGE strategic advantage the Allied player needs to understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Somehow the values of fuel and resources to generate HI were increased. By end of 42 I knew something about was wrong. Didn’t know those values could be changed and where to do so. I use Tracker but didn’t see the changes for some time. I think I changed the fuel and resources in response to fix. Next restart showed issues in mid-42. I found the proper fix then. At time there were multiple slots for BTS versions and RA. John may have used one of these versions for the current one being used in this game and mine. Hopefully our work to create a master file will minimize these issues going forward.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I don't understand. What was wrong?

Were oil(fuel)/resources insufficient for the increased HI/LI?

If the increased HI/LI couldn't be supported by the well researched and already generous oil and resources available to Japan after their conquest of the SRA, wouldn't decreasing the HI/LI be the natural response?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

It's your reading comprehension, young man.

quote:


Am all for comment and discussion but that is NOT what went on by all yesterday. You know this. As to the comment about Sean's AAR discussion your comment is not entirely true either. He and others told me there have been personal commentary that dates back to Dan's last game with me. I can handle that. Read most of Dan's AAR after our last match ended and it really pissed me off. NOTHING like that was in my AAR vs him.

Don't understand it but can handle it. Why does it have to be personal? Why does it have to be snarky and personal? These are legitimate queries. Doesn't happen in other AARs. Why does it have to happen there and here?

In the long run it doesn't matter but it is still irritating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

All things else being equal wouldn't the stronger landing gear and arresting gear required for carrier fighters have some negative impact on performance? Carrier fighters simply had to be a bit sturdier than land based aircraft