Flaks revisited

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Germany at War: Barbarossa 1941 >> Mods and Scenarios >> Flaks revisited

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Flaks revisited - 12/4/2019 9:07:09 PM

AngrySwan

Posts: 435
Joined: 10/3/2013
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In some other games the flaks (especially 88 mm) during the player' s turn. In Germany at War they only have defensive fire during the AI turn because 88 mm flaks were not so mobile and could not chase tanks.

There is a way to make a flak that does not chase enemy tanks and can still shoot in the player's turn. If a flak could only have 1 action point (I do not know if it can be done) it could have offensive fire in player' s turn and the player could attack with it (if the enemy is in range).

How this would look in game:

You move your flak to a new position, for example; close to an enemy bunker. The flak is dismounted when it ends its move (if you move a flak on transport close to the enemy you will just lose the flak). The flak kas used its 1 action point.
I would use a regiment of 88 m flaks for this. The flak should be placed so that only one enemy can attack it, and supported bu artillery. Unsupported flak battalions do not last long.
The enemy (a bunker or an infantry unit or very rarely a tank - I do not remember my flaks ever fighting tanks). The flak fires defensively during the AI turn, and the artillery supports it. If you have placed infantry units on both sides of your flak they will protect it from the flanks.
All this is possible in the game as it is.

Now the new part. It is your turn and the enemy is in range. In the game as it is you cannot use your flak in your turn. If flaks could be modded you could attack the AI unit with your flak. The flak uses its 1 action point and cannot do anything more in your turn.

There can be two problems:
- maybe there is no chance to give 1 action point to a flak but have 2 points for artillery;
- maybe the AI will not attack the flak because it is now stronger; this can only be checked in a modded game.

So far I have used flaks for ground combat in three scenarios:
- a flak battalion can be brought to Lwow (with artilllery suport); and fight the Soviets defending the city;
- a flak regiment as bunker killer in Kiev scenario;
- a flak regiment defending one of the small towns in the north in Rostow scenario.

I do not know if this can work in game but if someone has the time to make this flak (offensive fire, 1 action point) I could test it.

Post #: 1

RE: Flaks revisited - 12/5/2019 5:55:49 AM

AngrySwan

Posts: 435
Joined: 10/3/2013
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This new 88 mm flak, on the other hand, would have range of 1 against planes. The flak as it is also has range of 1 but it can move 1 hex and attack a plane 1 hex away, so it actually has range of 2 against planes.

That means 2 types of 88 mm flaks.

Flak for ground combat (a new unit)
- 1 action point
- can fire in player's turn
- cannot move closer to a plane and then shoot it, like the current flak has

AD flak (what we have)
- 2 action points
- range 1+1 against planes and only 1 against ground units
- can attack planes but not ground units (only defensive fire against ground units in AI turn)

The problems are
- adding a new unit
- if this unit is in flak class, can a unit have 1 action point when others have 2?
- if t is in antitank class, you cannot take a flak and upgrade to antitank

Anyway, in an operational level game this flak will have limited power and will not be the great tank killer as in Panzer General II or 3D, although a regiment of flaks could do some damage to ground units, mostly bunkers.If you have flaks and artillery you can attack a bunker with your artillery units and finish it with a flak.

In the campaigns as they are, there are two scenarios for it:
- Kiev (the force attacking Kiev could have 2 flaks, one of them could then be the new type)
- this flak could be used in Rostov operation.

< Message edited by AngrySwan -- 12/5/2019 5:57:54 AM >

(in reply to AngrySwan)

Post #: 2

RE: Flaks revisited - 12/6/2019 7:04:20 AM

terminator

Posts: 1047
Joined: 12/10/2009
From: France
Status: offline

We have already discussed it in this post: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3919338

In the Rostov scenario, there is a Wiking 8.8cm Flak but of little interest because there is no Soviet aviation :

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by terminator -- 12/6/2019 8:37:22 AM >

(in reply to AngrySwan)

Post #: 3

RE: Flaks revisited - 12/6/2019 11:59:15 AM

AngrySwan

Posts: 435
Joined: 10/3/2013
Status: offline

Now when we have the right tactics for flaks they can be used in any scenario but some scenarios are better for flaks and in some they are not available.

A flak battalion is not so interesting especially if the enemy has superior numbers. If you can build a line and hold it you may also put a flak in that line, but then you need artillery support on your side and no artillery on the other side.

A flak regiment could also be placed in a fortified area to make the defense stronger - a not very typical situation for 1941 but can be done.

Anyway, if someone feels like creating another version of 88 mm flak ans if units with 1 action point could be created, I could test it.
This flak could be in flak class and named 88 mm AT, and the present flak would then be renamed to 88 mm AD so that the player knows who is who. If action points allow it, I would have this new flak in the same flak class, so you can take the AD flak battalion from Lwow and upgrade it to AT flak before Kiev.

(in reply to terminator)

Post #: 4

RE: Flaks revisited - 12/6/2019 5:31:58 PM

AngrySwan

Posts: 435
Joined: 10/3/2013
Status: offline

The 610th 88 mm flak battalion in the battle of Lwow

After destroying approximately half a squadron (3) of Soviet fighters, the flak battalion moves south behind the infantry lines. The terrain is difficult which makes the flaks clumsy and unsuitable for action; the front moves fast and the transport cannot handle the rough terrain. Anyway, by the end of June the flak battalion has reached a position east of Lwow. It is placed so that only one Soviet unit can attack it. The flaks are supported by 105 mm howitzers of the 430th artillery battalion (reinforced with an additional platoon of 105 mm howitzers). After 2 days of fighting the flak battalion has destroyed up to one regiment of enemy infantry (6) and its commander is promoted.

The 610th battalion is now pulled out of front line and will become a part of the 6th flak regiment to fight in the direction of Kiev.

Lessons learned:
- Flaks need good transport, otherwise they are just too slow. (Transport is not so important for airfield defenses and garrison flaks).
- A flak battalion is not a very strong unit in defense; it needs artillery support and its flanks must be protected. Flaks perform better when used in regiments.
- Keep your flak unit strong. In this situation the flak received reinforcements at the end of each of 2 days of fighting and replacements were more important than firing back (but it can be the other way if the enemy is weak or if your artillery support is strong enough.)
- Flaks are best for defending places the enemy must take (bridges or important cities). They can also take part in encirclements and fight encircled enemy units. They are not so good in the field because there are too many directions of possible attacks and a flak will never be in the right place (unless you manage to encircle a tank division and bring a flak there.)

(in reply to AngrySwan)

Post #: 5