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Axis OP - 1/3/2020 11:19:15 PM

battlevonwar

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This is an early observation I know, my Axis vs two different matches in PBEM seem unbeatable. You see the key is that those Panzer/Mechs have no real counter. There aren't enough city or rough terrain hexes to halt them up. They will just sort lawnmower The USSR. I feel comfortable in taking Moscow/Leningrad from just about any PBEM player with Axis by Winter sets in '41. I can average 12-15 Tank/Mech Korps and with Air Power well cities and strong points won't hold long enough!

USSR lacks a strong delaying unit. Rifle Corps don't work... The other stuff they don't have enough of so it will get encircled and then destroyed. I feel maybe there is players that have some META strategy to defend the Soviets?

Match your observations to mine please?

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RE: Axis OP - 1/3/2020 11:52:44 PM

AlbertN

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URSS disbands corps at the moment and churns out mechs and armour.

I feel the Axis hopeless instead. Once I am done with ongoing games I can try play Allies vs you!

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Post #: 2

RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 12:16:20 AM

hansondavid4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

This is an early observation I know, my Axis vs two different matches in PBEM seem unbeatable. You see the key is that those Panzer/Mechs have no real counter. There aren't enough city or rough terrain hexes to halt them up. They will just sort lawnmower The USSR. I feel comfortable in taking Moscow/Leningrad from just about any PBEM player with Axis by Winter sets in '41. I can average 12-15 Tank/Mech Korps and with Air Power well cities and strong points won't hold long enough!

USSR lacks a strong delaying unit. Rifle Corps don't work... The other stuff they don't have enough of so it will get encircled and then destroyed. I feel maybe there is players that have some META strategy to defend the Soviets?

Match your observations to mine please?

I agree with you build mix. That is what I come to in my most recent game. I was going to try a counter to see what max Lend Lease could do to help the Soviets when I ran across the bug that limits LL to the Soviet merchant fleet. In my hotseat game I had a similar force disposition. Took Moscow as winter set in and then ripped a big whole in April 42. That when I noticed the allies had wasted a 1000 PP trying to prop the soviets (lend lease sent but not received). I was waiting for a patch to see if I can counter it.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 12:23:47 AM

hansondavid4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

URSS disbands corps at the moment and churns out mechs and armour.

I feel the Axis hopeless instead. Once I am done with ongoing games I can try play Allies vs you!

I agree that if you are fighting with an Rifle Corp you are wasting good PP. I disband most of them over the winter to build up Mech force. To be arriving as Barbarossa begins. They still cannot stand up to the German armor but take a few hits before retreating. My thought is an equal mix of Cav/MTN/MECH for prewar builds. Each has a virtue: Cav is cheap and fast/ MTN troops are good for cities and rough terrain / Mech have density and will be create later in the war.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 2:26:41 AM

AlvaroSousa

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I'll tell you my approach. I form delay lines for the Axis as the Soviets in good territory forcing them to use the maximum operation points to advance exhausting themselves by the winter while I build up a winter attack force. I start disbanding corps when I have enough to reform a line segment with armies.

I have to think about the positions you want to defend and which you want to delay looking at how well that hex can hold off an attacker. Try to balance weaker units in rugged hexes and stronger ones in river lines that are not rugged.

I can't beat myself in a 1941 Barbarossa in 1941. Usually the line is close to historical with me as the Axis having to slowdown and replenish.

Hope that helps.

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Post #: 5

RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 8:38:26 AM

Flaviusx

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This is the flipside of all these threads claiming the game is hopeless for the Axis.

There is far too much rushing to judgment going on here about game balance.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 11:52:37 AM

tigercub

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different players do different tactics saying one side is OP may well be to early in this game.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 2:24:23 PM

battlevonwar

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I would be curious to see if mechs and armour can do the job. Soviets need enough time to get the full Allied pressure on...

Let me know when you get time Cohen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

URSS disbands corps at the moment and churns out mechs and armour.

I feel the Axis hopeless instead. Once I am done with ongoing games I can try play Allies vs you!

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 8

RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 2:35:06 PM

battlevonwar

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Flaviusx, in fairness to the design I know there is varying skill levels too. Personally I like to try something vs the AI 10-15 times before trying that vs a Human. While most people will try it once or twice as a human and give up and call it quits. Will have to experiment with Allied defense or see it done well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is the flipside of all these threads claiming the game is hopeless for the Axis.

There is far too much rushing to judgment going on here about game balance.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 9

RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 3:53:22 PM

DicedT

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I played Barovnonwar as the Allies. I conceded in July '41 (the Germans attacked Russia in May) because the Axis were just too overpowered. We were playing version 1.04 with no patches, so I don't know if the beta patches would make a difference.

It was the first time I played, so I clearly made some mistakes. But it seemed to me that like other Strategic Command-type games, the Axis gobble up everything in the early game (seizing French North Africa doesn't hasten U.S. entry?). It also didn't seem to me that the Germans encountered supply difficulties as they moved deeper into Russia.

Michael

(in reply to battlevonwar)

Post #: 10

RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 4:02:17 PM

battlevonwar

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DicedT,

No value in Vichy N.Africa I was just not interested in attacking Egypt as it's a supply nightmare. It has 1 Strat.Resource ignore it. You never raided Norwegian Ore(that is valuable). At least with the Western Allies. Libyan Supply raiding doesn't really matter...

As Axis I used all Tanks/Mechs/Bombers(actually couldn't use my bombers on you moving too fast to) a ton of infantry and a ton of Trucks... Regularly ran out of supply and the Air Power in our game couldn't keep up. I would be in the Urals by the time Winter hit. Not your fault, those infantry were fodder. Another player I'm up against used Mechs and Tanks mixed in and I'm at precisely the same point and he is going to push the Moscow situation for Winter. I think I have it. . . Of course I started 2 months late and I didn't know what I knew when we played.

Think the Allies require 'a lot of knowledge about the game' to be played properly. I am not sure if they're up to the task in the East.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT

I played Barovnonwar as the Allies. I conceded in July '41 (the Germans attacked Russia in May) because the Axis were just too overpowered. We were playing version 1.04 with no patches, so I don't know if the beta patches would make a difference.

It was the first time I played, so I clearly made some mistakes. But it seemed to me that like other Strategic Command-type games, the Axis gobble up everything in the early game (seizing French North Africa doesn't hasten U.S. entry?). It also didn't seem to me that the Germans encountered supply difficulties as they moved deeper into Russia.

Michael

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 1/4/2020 4:03:07 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 4:18:11 PM

ago1000

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How do you gentlemen who play Axis deal with Oil? I always seem to be short and my armor and mech become ineffective? Is there a fine balance between armor and infantry? A ratio or rule of thumb perhaps?

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 4:24:20 PM

battlevonwar

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In the game above I was at about 65% near Moscow/Leningrad/Donetz Basin. In my mirror game I am at the same place. Oil probably would never be a challenge I don't think... Oil would probably be an issue in '42-43 if there was a second front?

P.S. Use your rails a lot more... For every oil unit you have. Do not invade countries that yield little or no return... Oil should be 100% by Barbarossa without exception!

(like to keep the builds secret till I put 'em up against someone who can stop them)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

How do you gentlemen who play Axis deal with Oil? I always seem to be short and my armor and mech become ineffective? Is there a fine balance between armor and infantry? A ratio or rule of thumb perhaps?

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 1/4/2020 4:25:19 PM >

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 4:50:53 PM

ago1000

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Thanks Battlevonwar. I'm playing the AI (@seasoned & optimal settings) and waited for Russia to attack me. They are quite strong at the moment. I decided to try Operation Sealion and capture England first. Looking back, not a good idea unless Russia is subdued first. Live and learn.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 5:41:26 PM

battlevonwar

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ago1000,

looking at the logistics you have built a good deal of units and playing the AI you are zeroing out your oil cause you're doing a lot at once. Holding what you got will probably run into '45 and a VP win? I am pretty sure... Just use your units for defense

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Post #: 15

RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 5:48:15 PM

Journier

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also remember you get 5 extra oil every year via synthetic plants. hold your line since you wont break the russians now most likely. limited attacks, youll probably get a vp win.

< Message edited by Journier -- 1/4/2020 9:20:55 PM >

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RE: Axis OP - 1/4/2020 8:48:47 PM

ago1000

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Will do. Thanks.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 12:36:03 AM

MagicMissile

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Balance discussions are always difficult I think. Especially in the beginning of the lifecycle of a new game. There are bugs and balance patches which affect balance. Then you have to account for player skills and the amount of time you put into the game. If you are of equal skill but put in less time into the game you will probably do worse. Me for example tend to play fast which means occasionally I do something too hasty or forget to do something.

Secondly you have to think about the winning conditions. The axis can still win without conquering the whole map. My opinion is that a game between 2 equal players the Axis should not be able to win by painting the whole map gray. I very much doubt it could have happened in real life (of course can be discussed to the end of days) so it shouldn�t happen very often in the game.

I think we have too few AARs too really know what the balance look like. For me personally I want to see a HvH game between 2 players who say they think they are kind of equal in skill and where Russia survives a 1941 Barbarossa and then takes Berlin or at least get close to Berlin until I do I will think (rightly or wrongly) that either Germany are too strong or maybe more likely Russia are too weak.

/MM

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RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 1:05:21 AM

hansondavid4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

How do you gentlemen who play Axis deal with Oil? I always seem to be short and my armor and mech become ineffective? Is there a fine balance between armor and infantry? A ratio or rule of thumb perhaps?

My most recent iteration with the Axis was to buy a lot of Mech and Armor with German and no additional bombers (I will buy fighters for Reich defense). I bought a few addition bombers with available Italian logistics. I calculated that I was getting much bigger bang for my oil buck investing in Armor rather than bombers. It seem to work well. I was finally able to get historical results with the Axis.

Once Barbarossa starts I am careful about not moving oil dependent units unnecessarily. My armor is either resting or in the attack. I do not move them willy-nilly to save 2 OP for the next turn.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 3:17:34 AM

Journier

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thats a good way to play the axis, i have never tried no extra bombers though, they are multipurpose for me though, since they can assist in Italy in guarding against invasion.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 3:20:48 AM

AlbertN

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I've felt that bombers are pratically the only way to deal with well dug in troops - in general I try to squeeze in at least 2 more Stukas as Germany but it's hard to have more than that. Logistics and all.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 3:23:23 AM

Journier

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

I've felt that bombers are pratically the only way to deal with well dug in troops - in general I try to squeeze in at least 2 more Stukas as Germany but it's hard to have more than that. Logistics and all.

yea its definitely a fine line of production availability leading up to and into barbarossa before first winter.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 1:56:18 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
This is the flipside of all these threads claiming the game is hopeless for the Axis.
There is far too much rushing to judgment going on here about game balance.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 23

RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 9:49:12 PM

AlvaroSousa

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If the conversation is equal on both sides of the equation then it is probably well balanced.

Axis too OP?
No Allies too OP!

Vote 50/50

Seems balanced to me.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/5/2020 9:53:15 PM

Michael T

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No way the allies are OP.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/6/2020 9:01:53 AM

tyronec

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For me it seems too early to say. The patches are making a lot of difference and have not played an HvH game out to the finish yet.
One thing for sure, if one side makes a lot more mistakes then the other will win.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/6/2020 7:05:34 PM

battlevonwar

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Not sure what the Allies can throw at the Germans to stop Leningrad/Moscow from falling in 1941. Will have to seen what can be done. I can imagine 1 of them falling and the Allies recovering some though both seems to be ... very bad for the Allies...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

For me it seems too early to say. The patches are making a lot of difference and have not played an HvH game out to the finish yet.
One thing for sure, if one side makes a lot more mistakes then the other will win.

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RE: Axis OP - 1/6/2020 8:00:08 PM

AlbertN

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Soviets can play with the loss of both tbh - Leningrad is not that relevant, being 10 points.
Moscow being worth 25 is a different tale. Nonetheless it happened to me just once to be able to seize Moscow - and I believe my opponent there was learning the ropes (not that I am an expert right now - but I've done some games by now.)

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RE: Axis OP - 1/6/2020 8:00:21 PM

AlvaroSousa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

... The axis can still win without conquering the whole map. My opinion is that a game between 2 equal players the Axis should not be able to win by painting the whole map gray. .....

This is correct. The idea of the Axis is to gain as much as they can and hold it as long as they can.

The Allies is hold onto as much as they can then take back what they lost as fast as they can.

The reason for this is that I have seen too many Sitzkrieg games where the Germans can safely plow Spain, take the middle east, then do a 1942 barb to the river line and play an economy of force game just defending and delaying. My last WiF game I could have done that to win the game but instead I chose a different strategy and it came literally down to the last die roll on the last turn when the Allies were out of options. The whole game came down to a die roll. If I had Sitz's it we would have easily won.

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Post #: 29

RE: Axis OP - 1/6/2020 8:10:36 PM

AlbertN

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Pretty confident that in WiF Sitzkrieg is not a widely diffused strategy due to force pool constraints - the Allies benefit more than the Axis from a Sitz there.
Besides that it is a rarely used strategy also because it's not considered amusing. In general at the Wifcons is played a traditional Barbarossa '41 (often with the Japan in far east variety and Italian airforce in Russia, the so called 'kitchen sink').

But indeed Axis should not conquer the whole map in order to win. I'd be astonished if anyone achieves that in Warplan.
In WiF there is Germany that can even get to Urals, and then is pushed back from Urals to Warsaw in '44 (Given by now I play WiF on Vassal with the Collector's, so MWiF is out of date for me.)

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Post #: 30