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[FIXED] 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) planes take off to intercept a single target

 
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[FIXED] 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) p... - 1/7/2020 6:24:19 PM   
bostjan

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 2/23/2019
Status: offline 		I the attached scenario 20 airplanes from the west take off too intercept a single airplane coming from the east...one or two should be enough.

P.S. It seems to me that this problem emerged in version 1121.4 by solving the problem from the previous (1121.3) version: "Aircraft on air-intercept mission may RTB if their current primary target is not relevant to mission (while other secondary targets still are relevant)"






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< Message edited by Dimitris -- 7/18/2020 12:58:28 PM >
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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/7/2020 6:28:22 PM   
bostjan

 

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Status: offline 		Attached scenario:

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/7/2020 7:44:02 PM   
Eggstor

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 1/24/2016
Status: offline 		Try setting the "Maximum # of flights allowed to fly mission" to something other than "No preferences". With the current (1121.4) build, I tried this with 1x flight, 2x flight and no preferences, and with both single aircraft and section in flight size, and the expected number of flights/aircraft took off to intercept.

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/8/2020 4:39:01 PM   
bostjan

 

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Status: offline 		I am surpised the topic was marked >WAD< without explanation.

Unfortunately the suggested setting above works only for one case- a single target intercept. One would have to manually change the setting again if there were more aircraft attacking... I believe it makes the opponent (computer) pretty incompetent the way "air intercept mission" logic funcions in 1121.4.





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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/8/2020 5:26:49 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Status: offline 		Hi bostjan,

Eggstors explanation above is correct.

This is the way the air intercept AI has always worked; it's just up to the player/designer to make sure that they set up the mission to behave the way they want.

Usually I will set them up so that if there's e.g. 12 aircraft on the ground ready, they go up in flights of 4. When one flight is spent (either RTB or dead) another one goes up, and so forth as long as there's aircraft available.

You can adjust the 'maximum number of flights allowed to fly', 'flight size' and other WRA and doctrine settings to get the behaviour you want. There's also the ability to create multiple missions with different engagement zones; e.g. a mission that sends out only a single flight of 2 at long range contacts, and a more robust response for anything that gets close.

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/8/2020 11:27:12 PM   
LMychajluk

 

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Status: offline 		So, what exactly triggers an intercept 'mission'?

With an ASW Intercept - I would expect a surface group w/ a couple of helos assigned to an ASW intercept to launch the assigned number of flights for each contact, and that seems to be the case in my experience (I will usually set this to 1 flight), but that's usually one contact at a time. I've never been able to figure out the logic of the air intercepts, though... I usually end up with all my assigned aircraft in the air, or not enough to deal w/ the threat.

Ex - Assume there's a flight of 6 inbound bombers, and you have a squadron of heavy F-15s w/ 6 AMRAAMS and 2 Sidewinders each assigned to an Intercept Mission that is set to take off on any contact within X nm. You configure your intercept mission to launch 2 aircraft / flight and assign 12 aircraft to the mission. You set the Max flights to 3. How many flights should you expect to launch? Is it one flight per contact, one flight per group of contacts, or even one interceptor per contact (with a minimum of a flight)? Does the WRA come into play in deciding? I would think 4 heavy F-15s should be more than enough to deal w/ 6 bombers w/o escorts, but will 3 flights be launched? And then, if there's another group of contacts from a different direction - should the same mission launch against them if the max flights is already airborne (I don't think so)?



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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/9/2020 1:30:58 AM   
Whicker

 

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Status: offline 		I would expect 3 flights - all triggered by the first contact. From what I have been able to tell a single intercept mission can only handle one contact. It will not reset until flights assigned to that one initial contact land (or maybe RTB, not sure).
So it seemed to me that if you wanted to be able to intercept multiple AC coming in from different points (or the same) you would need an intercept mission for each one.

I could be wrong though. But I did spend some time trying to figure it out at one point (in CMANO). When you think about it, it is a complicated situation.

< Message edited by Whicker -- 1/9/2020 1:31:31 AM >

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/9/2020 5:00:24 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline 		Basiically the number of contacts is irrelevant. The maximum (available) number of flights will launch on detection of a contact at the relevant distance snd certainty level specified in the mission. It's a binary--on or off--event, not related to how many contacts. The only criteria considered is 'if a contact is present'.

Whicker is right, in the example you describe a maximum of three flights will launch (the maximum number will always be launched if there are ready aircraft to meet the max; the only time you will have less than the maximum is if aircraft are readying).

The only amplification I have there is that aircraft on an intercept will move to engage the nearest contact, once that contact is no longer targetted (dead, no longer detected, turned out to be friendly/neutral) they will look for other nearby contacts before going home. If a contact meets the engagement critera of certainty level and is within a reasonable prosecution range they will be engaged. This continues until the aircraft go winchester, bingo, or run out of contacts to investigate.

There needs to be a certain level of simplicity in the tactical AI; when we start hard coding for every situation we dig ourselves into a hole that we will never code our way out of. The design principle behind the intercept AI--as well as the rest of the sim--is to give players and designers simple but powerful tools to achieve desired behaviour.

Some scenarios included with CMO that you could look at for examples of how to set up air defenses are: Pyropolitis 1-14, Operation Lightning Strike, Operation Brass Drum, Khark Island Raid, and North Pacific Shootout.

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/9/2020 2:55:02 PM   
LMychajluk

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/8/2017
Status: offline 		Thanks for the clarification!

The one thing regarding investigating other contacts is that I usually have to specifically set the mission's weapon's doctrine to 'All BVR Weapons Expended'. Otherwise it seems that the interceptors will turn around and head home w/ 1/2 a loadout.

I'll also have to dig into those scenarios a bit more!

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/9/2020 3:35:55 PM   
Whicker

 

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Status: offline 		so for his example of enemy ac coming from widely different directions, assuming there are tons of available ac assigned to the mission you would expect both enemy ac to be intercepted? this is where I am saying it can only handle one contact/contacts in an area and nothing else will happen until those assigned ac rtb or land. Not complaining if this is the case, but as a user it is good to know.

Easy enough to test, will do when I get a chance.

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/11/2020 10:24:33 AM   
bostjan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85



quote:

This is the way the air intercept AI has always worked;


Hi,
I can say for the last year only: In my experience the air intercept mission always tried to match the number of air interceptors to the no. of attacking aircraft. Attached is the example of the same mission in one of the previous versions of CMO (applies to CMANO also).

You might consider making it as a selectable option in the attack missions in general then: "Match the size/stregth of attacking aircraft to the target). It could apply to all types of attack missions...








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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/11/2020 11:04:29 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		I notice that on this example you have set a flight size of 1 instead of "Unspecified". Maybe that's why ?

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/11/2020 2:36:07 PM   
bostjan

 

Posts: 25
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Status: offline 		No changes. I used the same test scenario as used in the first post.

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/12/2020 5:32:41 PM   
Eggstor

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 1/24/2016
Status: offline 		I reran bostjan's scenario as originally posted with the 1115.8.1 build (current Steam version), and a single BluFor F-15 launched after the E-2 was identified as hostile instead of the 20 that launched in the 1121.4 build.

I also tested a slightly-modified version with 4 RedFor F-15s (and 1 RedFor E-2) launching instead of the single F-15 and single E-2 (file attached). With the 1115.8.1 build, ultimately 5 BluFor F-15s launched, with the last 4 launching several minutes after the first but before any of the RedFor F-15s were identified. With the 1121.4 build, all 20 launched one right after the other.

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< Message edited by Eggstor -- 1/12/2020 5:35:07 PM >

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/12/2020 5:36:38 PM   
Dimitris

 

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Status: offline 		Alright thanks, we'll take another look at this.

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/14/2020 12:59:00 PM   
Dimitris

 

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Status: offline 		Fixed for the next update release.

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/14/2020 6:29:50 PM   
Eggstor

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 1/24/2016
Status: offline 		The balance of planes launched seems to be good under 1121.5. The original test scenario has 2 flights of one launched, and the modified scenario had 4 flights of one launched (went to 6 total as two BluFor F-15s went Winchester mid-scenario).

Thanks for the fix(es).

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 1/14/2020 7:47:04 PM   
bostjan

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 2/23/2019
Status: offline 		Checked the update for this and for one previous issue with air intercept mission(RTB). Looks like AI got smarter;)
Good work!

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RE: 1121.4- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 5/23/2020 2:02:19 PM   
LMychajluk

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/8/2017
Status: offline 		I've been on a bit of a hiatus from CMO while some of the initial launch issues were shaken out. I came back to it this morning, and I think this issue is still active w/ 1143.1.

In the attached scenario, I have an ASW Intercept mission set up with the 2 helos on the Keelung assigned to the mission. If you let it play, a contact will be detected to the NW, at which point both helos are launched, even though the mission is set up w/ one aircraft. I would expect only one helo be launched to investigate the contact(?).

Edit - Nevermind - I think I needed to set the max # of flights as well. Will keep an eye on it.


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< Message edited by LMychajluk -- 5/23/2020 2:12:48 PM >

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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/17/2020 12:55:46 PM   
bostjan

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 2/23/2019
Status: offline 		The issue is back indeed. In the example scenario 10 planes take off to intercept 1 plane.
CMO ver 1147.7

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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/18/2020 2:36:14 AM   
michaelm75au


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Status: offline 		Change the "Maximum # of flights allowed to fly mission" setting to 1 and only one flight be active at a time.
There isn't an option for '#flights per contact'.

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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/18/2020 6:57:24 AM   
Dimitris

 

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Status: offline 		Can we confirm that this is WAD ?

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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/18/2020 8:45:21 AM   
bostjan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

Change the "Maximum # of flights allowed to fly mission" setting to 1 and only one flight be active at a time.
There isn't an option for '#flights per contact'.

If you look at the history of the post you will see exactly the same argument has already been discussed above...and solved. Unfortunately solved only temporarilly for the duration of a few months.
By setting the max no of flights to 1 works only for one case- a single (and easy) target intercept. Let us presume the opponent has 40 aircraft available. One can expect the attack from 0 to 40 aircraft... One would have to manually change the setting again if there were more than 1 aircraft attacking...
For the player side it makes little sense of creating a mission which needs manual intervention for almost every single case. Some help/ computer intelligence would be desirable.
On the other hand I believe it also makes the opponent (computer) less competent the way "air intercept mission" logic funcions at the moment.
An option #flights per contact would be a nice upgrade. Much better than the current the "same no.of planes out" response.

P.S. Just for the discussion: It could be even better if there was more control in the mission planning available. Without using lua. For example the no. of aircraft responding to 5th gen aircraft attack could be different to 4th gen...

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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/18/2020 8:48:46 AM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bostjan
If you look at the history of the post you will see exactly the same argument has already been discussed above...and solved. Unfortunately solved only temporarilly for the duration of a few months.


So, in which exactly build you think the behavior "re-broke"?

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 7/18/2020 10:13:17 AM >

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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/18/2020 8:51:14 AM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bostjan
P.S. Just for the discussion: It could be even better if there was more control in the mission planning available. Without using lua. For example the no. of aircraft responding to 5th gen aircraft attack could be different to 4th gen...


So, even more buttons and dropdowns?



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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/18/2020 10:13:21 AM   
bostjan

 

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quote:

Was it solved, or was it "solved"? (ie. fixed one specific case and broke 100 others?)



quote:

So, even more buttons and dropdowns?
quote:



Your questions sound more like statments. I will restrain from ideas in the future. You are the decison maker. ;)

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RE: 1147.7- Air intercept mission- too many (all) plane... - 7/18/2020 10:16:27 AM   
Dimitris

 

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Status: offline 		Passive-aggressive comments are not welcome here.

Locking this thread. If someone has a problem with how the AI works, make your case without playing games with us.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 7/18/2020 11:00:15 AM >

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