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German tanks - 1/12/2020 2:05:25 PM

TheLysander

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I understand that german tanks in 41 and 42 are made of some sort of invulnerable compound yet i dont understand when im in 1943 and im attacking with a tank ratio of 3 to 1 and losing some 100+ tanks (t-34 are half those losses) and they only lose 2 or 3. What am i supposed to do to try and maximise enemy tank losses? I cant engage enemy infantry units because enemy panzers that are set on reserve are committed from 6+ hexes away. All in all it seems like a massive grind as the soviets and you just end up losing thousands of men for very little gain.

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 2:14:56 PM

Telemecus

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On the other hand the Germans only produce a few tanks a week, whereas the Soviet side produces 100s. So you have to look at each side in tanks relative to their tank production. Even with that loss ratio the Soviet side may still be comparatively at an advantage?

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 4:07:08 PM

king171717

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Thunder in the East, Evan Mawdsley table 7.3 states that in 1943 the Soviets tank losses were 22,400 (14,700 med tanks) out of an available 47,900 tanks and SPG.

The Soviets suffered high tank losses.

(meant in response to TheLysander)

< Message edited by king171717 -- 1/12/2020 4:09:21 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 4:15:49 PM

TheLysander

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Okay i understand that but my point is not more along the lines of attrition. The best way for the soviets to win is to slowly bleed to axis dry and i dont mind loosing 100 tanks per engagement, just that the axis lose too few tanks to make it even economical to attack. Currently the axis have 8000 tanks in 43, how is it possible to bleed to axis of their tanks if they just dont die and my tanks seem to be made of paper?

Also what were the axis tank losses for that year?

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 5:07:11 PM

king171717

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Zaloga, Steven J.; Ness, Leland S. (2003). The Red Army Handbook 1939-1945. table (from wiki)

(1943)Just Soviets tanks Tank strength is 20,600
(1943)German Tank Strength is 5,648 (however its all of her front strengths, not just the eastern front)

1943 Soviet Tank losses is 22,400
1943 German Tank losses is 6,362 (all fronts)
1943 Soviet-German tank loss ratio 4:1

The reason i think german players have a higher in game tank numbers is that they can use infantry to make the breakthrough where as, in the war the germans had to use there panzers to breathrough and then use them to hold the pockets until the Infantry could get there (1941). In the meantime the Soviets would counter attack which would drain the panzer divisions.

Just a thought anyways

< Message edited by king171717 -- 1/12/2020 5:22:03 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 5:10:51 PM

xhoel

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@TheLysander: German tanks in 41' and 42' are not invulnerable. The Germans take higher losses than they did historically, while the Soviets take way fewer losses.

You are losing so many tanks because of Soviet tank doctrine, better German tank crews and better German armor. Plenty of your losses should be from T-70s or T-60s which are paper thin and a joke. Also don't just look at battle losses. German AFV losses increase a lot during the logistics phase and the German tank production is way too low to cover them in times of heavy combat (prolonged Soviet offensives).

OOB in WitE is a bit misinforming. I guarantee you that the Axis do not have 8.000 tanks, they have 8.000 AFVs. The game classifies SP Flak, Armored Cars and halftracks as AFVs too, but they are not tanks.
Take a look at the pic. Per OOB this division has 226 tanks even though that's not true. It has 160 actual tanks and around 66 "other" tacked or armored vehicles. That's around 30% of the AFVs.

If you apply that ratio to the normal OOB you would get around 5.600 tanks. That is not that astonishing when you think about the sheer number of tanks the Soviets can field.

I would advise you to not focus so much on attriting the Germans by frontal attacks. Plan for encirclements and destroy their units, forcing them to thin their lines to close the gaps. Try hitting Axis Allies as they are easier to hurt/destroy.

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< Message edited by xhoel -- 1/12/2020 5:13:20 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 5:43:43 PM

king171717

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

@TheLysander: German tanks in 41' and 42' are not invulnerable. The Germans take higher losses than they did historically, while the Soviets take way fewer losses.

You are losing so many tanks because of Soviet tank doctrine, better German tank crews and better German armor. Plenty of your losses should be from T-70s or T-60s which are paper thin and a joke. Also don't just look at battle losses. German AFV losses increase a lot during the logistics phase and the German tank production is way too low to cover them in times of heavy combat (prolonged Soviet offensives).

OOB in WitE is a bit misinforming. I guarantee you that the Axis do not have 8.000 tanks, they have 8.000 AFVs. The game classifies SP Flak, Armored Cars and halftracks as AFVs too, but they are not tanks.
Take a look at the pic. Per OOB this division has 226 tanks even though that's not true. It has 160 actual tanks and around 66 "other" tacked or armored vehicles. That's around 30% of the AFVs.

If you apply that ratio to the normal OOB you would get around 5.600 tanks. That is not that astonishing when you think about the sheer number of tanks the Soviets can field.

I would advise you to not focus so much on attriting the Germans by frontal attacks. Plan for encirclements and destroy their units, forcing them to thin their lines to close the gaps. Try hitting Axis Allies as they are easier to hurt/destroy.

good point on the classification of vehicles!

I think panzer divsions are stronger in 1941 then in real life however.

From Operation Barbarossa and Germany Defeat in the East, David Stahel.

"by the end of August panzer losses across the eastern front had reached 1,488, with Hitler still determinded to withhold most of the new domestic production of panzers for later campaigns. As a result, only 96 replacements were released out of 815 new models produced between June and August 1941. Based on starting totals given 22 june 1941, on 4 september the number of available panzers were as follows: total losses constituted about 30 per cent, as under repair 23 per cent, leaving 47 per cent ready for action. Under Army Group Centre only 34 per cent of tanks were classed as ready for action."

< Message edited by king171717 -- 1/12/2020 5:44:52 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 6:41:09 PM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

good point on the classification of vehicles!

Yeah, it really makes a difference when you think about it that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

I think panzer divsions are stronger in 1941 then in real life however.

From Operation Barbarossa and Germany Defeat in the East, David Stahel.

"by the end of August panzer losses across the eastern front had reached 1,488, with Hitler still determinded to withhold most of the new domestic production of panzers for later campaigns. As a result, only 96 replacements were released out of 815 new models produced between June and August 1941.

I just took a look at my campaign numbers. By turn 11 (28th of August-4th of September) end of German turn, tank losses were 1,455 while SP&AC losses were at 187. So the numbers look pretty close to historical ones, only a 33 tank difference between them.

Only 1 turn later, losses are at 1,626 tanks and 229 SP&AC. That means a loss of 171 tanks and 42 SP&AC. So almost 210+ AFVs lost a week.

I don't have numbers of ready tanks for the time though :/

< Message edited by xhoel -- 1/12/2020 6:43:40 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 6:55:20 PM

king171717

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

good point on the classification of vehicles!

Yeah, it really makes a difference when you think about it that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

I think panzer divsions are stronger in 1941 then in real life however.

From Operation Barbarossa and Germany Defeat in the East, David Stahel.

"by the end of August panzer losses across the eastern front had reached 1,488, with Hitler still determinded to withhold most of the new domestic production of panzers for later campaigns. As a result, only 96 replacements were released out of 815 new models produced between June and August 1941.

I just took a look at my campaign numbers. By turn 11 (28th of August-4th of September) end of German turn, tank losses were 1,455 while SP&AC losses were at 187. So the numbers look pretty close to historical ones, only a 33 tank difference between them.

Only 1 turn later, losses are at 1,626 tanks and 229 SP&AC. That means a loss of 171 tanks and 42 SP&AC. So almost 210+ AFVs lost a week.

I don't have numbers of ready tanks for the time though :/

Ya those tank losses numbers are really close! Thats really good.

I mean the strength of the panzer, the CV value. Stays so high in 1941. I think it has to do with the better game rail system and the panzer actually getting repairs done and replacements.
Although attacking with Panzer divisions in the game can make losing those tanks painfully. Its not like u can attack everything u want and still have high tank numbers. So maybe its the way the player uses the Panzer divisions that allows it to keep its high CV.

But i guess the 1941 campaign is different as Soviets dont counterattack and wear u down. they trade space for time. And a game engine can only do so much. really really like this game tho :)

< Message edited by king171717 -- 1/12/2020 7:10:41 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 7:08:49 PM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

Ya those tank losses numbers are really close! Thats really good.

I mean the strength of the panzer, the CV value. Stays so high in 1941. I think it has to do with the better game rail system and the panzer actually getting repairs done and replacements.

But i guess the 1941 campaign is different as Soviets dont counterattack and wear u down. they trade space for time. And a game engine can only do so much. really really like this game tho :)

Yeah the supply system is a bit too strong because it can't properly simulate the real life supply but the new WitE2 improves on that a lot.

Yeah the CV stays high relatively, but you will see a decline to it especially in the south when you drive east too much. You get very few tank replacements though, so most of your panzer divisions will be in dire need for them.

Panzer divisions of Army Group South on turn 14 (18th of September-25th of September 1941). These are total TOEs not ready ones. Ready TOEs are probably 5-10% lower. You can see that their CV isn't that impressive either. I was facing heavy fuel shortages and constant combat caused plenty of attrition. My tank pools were almost empty at that point.

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< Message edited by xhoel -- 1/12/2020 7:09:47 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 7:21:49 PM

king171717

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

Ya those tank losses numbers are really close! Thats really good.

I mean the strength of the panzer, the CV value. Stays so high in 1941. I think it has to do with the better game rail system and the panzer actually getting repairs done and replacements.

But i guess the 1941 campaign is different as Soviets dont counterattack and wear u down. they trade space for time. And a game engine can only do so much. really really like this game tho :)

Yeah the supply system is a bit too strong because it can't properly simulate the real life supply but the new WitE2 improves on that a lot.

Yeah the CV stays high relatively, but you will see a decline to it especially in the south when you drive east too much. You get very few tank replacements though, so most of your panzer divisions will be in dire need for them.

Panzer divisions of Army Group South on turn 14 (18th of September-25th of September 1941). These are total TOEs not ready ones. Ready TOEs are probably 5-10% lower. You can see that their CV isn't that impressive either. I was facing heavy fuel shortages and constant combat caused plenty of attrition. My tank pools were almost empty at that point.

ya, I am excited for that change in the new version. And Supply in this game is still worlds better than any other games I have played before. So its still a great system.

ya u can totally feel your CV go down with the TOE goes down. I really felt that with my infantry. I thought it was really cool, especially in the Blizzard.

I have been trying to keep my TOE as high as I could for my panzers in my game. And i do notice when they get to the 70ish TOE there CV is already a 10-20 points lower. Ya my tank pools were always in need of more tanks too in the summer.

I added this to my last post afterwards.

Although attacking with Panzer divisions in this game can make losing those tanks painfully. Its not like u can attack everything u want and still have high tank numbers. So maybe its the way the player uses the Panzer divisions that allows it to keep its higher CV than historically.

< Message edited by king171717 -- 1/12/2020 7:23:18 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 7:26:40 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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One of the problems in WitE is that advanced spearheads can get replacements way to easily. Germans benefit in 1941/1942 and Soviets probably late in the war. Assuming sufficient replacements, a unit can get from 30% TOE to 100% TOE quickly even if on low supply.
Historically replacements competed with all other goods for scarce transport capacity. Hitler has been often criticised, and probably rightfully so, for holding back tank replacements back in Germany in 1941 for new units. But it may be questioned if the replacements could have been distributed to the advanced units in time. If the rail system can barely supply ammunition and fuel, transporting a few hundred tanks and heavy artillery pieces from Poland to Stalino would have been impossible, limiting replacements to "light" equipment like people and small arms.
Driving tanks over vast distances isn't an option either, as they take attrition and eat fuel like crazy.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 1/12/2020 7:29:01 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 11:09:21 PM

Mehring

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Having just completed a 41-45 Soviet campaign in September 44, I was running out of T34-M41/42 pool. I don't know if that's historical. Through 1944 I had about 23k AFV vs 9.5k Axis AFV.

T-34's were not durable, engines not built to last, so I'd expect a lot of refit phase losses and low repair rates, but soviet medium tank combat losses are I think a tad over done and Axis panther/Tiger losses suspiciously low. They seem to recover a lot of damaged vehicles from lost battles. I'd guess panthers were being lost at around 15-20 pw, tigers only a couple.

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 11:26:17 PM

xhoel

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@king171717: Yeah WitE is a great game, one of the best I've played and it's my top game in terms of WW2 ones.

The Germans never have enough tanks to properly replenish losses. I think the fact that the Soviets also don't counterattack that much (not that I blame them) does add to the fact that the panzers are a bit stronger than irl.

@Evk: Agree with that although I must say so far I have noticed that if your panzers are too far forward from your supply lines, replenishment rates will drop to a point where you are getting nothing through. But yes what you say makes sense.

That's a nice thing the game models though and one thing you showed me which I had no idea of :D

@Mehring: I think that those versions of the T-34 get phased out in 1944 as the production of the better T-34/85 begins. Most of those older T-34 M41/42 should start converting to the T-34/85 as well which may be the reason why you are seeing shortages. Also the number of Tank Corps you build affects that a lot. There have been plenty of AARs where the Soviets have overdone it in terms of tank corps created and then suffered shortages.

Can't really speak about your particular game, but from what I have seen from AARs that go to the end, AFV losses are pretty close to historical ones.

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RE: German tanks - 1/12/2020 11:39:20 PM

Mehring

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

@king171717: Yeah WitE is a great game, one of the best I've played and it's my top game in terms of WW2 ones.

The Germans never have enough tanks to properly replenish losses. I think the fact that the Soviets also don't counterattack that much (not that I blame them) does add to the fact that the panzers are a bit stronger than irl.

@Mehring: I think that those versions of the T-34 get phased out in 1944 as the production of the better T-34/85 begins. Most of those older T-34 M41/42 should start converting to the T-34/85 as well which may be the reason why you are seeing shortages. Also the number of Tank Corps you build affects that a lot. There have been plenty of AARs where the Soviets have overdone it in terms of tank corps created and then suffered shortages.

Can't really speak about your particular game, but from what I have seen from AARs that go to the end, AFV losses are pretty close to historical ones.

I'd quote you figures but after the game concluded, and in spite of an email saying I can inspect it, it's disappeared from my server. A problem of determining realism is indeed play styles and the circumstances of individual games.

By 44, Soviets produce 240 34/85s pw and also receive 45 Shermans IIRC. That's it for meds, no more valentines, and no lights. T34's dont upgrade so there are never enough 85's to replace older models. I don't think my tank corps were excessive, perhaps 20 though I'd guess i had around 40 regiments and a good number of cav corps. It's not scientific, I grant you, but med losses did seem a bit overdone.

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RE: German tanks - 1/13/2020 1:34:50 AM

56ajax

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLysander

I understand that german tanks in 41 and 42 are made of some sort of invulnerable compound yet i dont understand when im in 1943 and im attacking with a tank ratio of 3 to 1 and losing some 100+ tanks (t-34 are half those losses) and they only lose 2 or 3. What am i supposed to do to try and maximise enemy tank losses? I cant engage enemy infantry units because enemy panzers that are set on reserve are committed from 6+ hexes away. All in all it seems like a massive grind as the soviets and you just end up losing thousands of men for very little gain.

You sound like a disgruntled Russian player. Join the club.

German tanks arn't invulnerable, it's just that Russian anti tank guns fire pop corn. But don't worry, in a patch far,far away it is mooted that this pop corn will be upgraded to peas.

Seriously this game is WiTE and not a re run of WW2 Russian Front, though the game does do an excellent job of trying.

To maximises afv losses bomb the unit, do 3 or 4 hasty attacks, then try and smash it with a deliberate attack. You might force a retreat and it just might shed a Pz1 or some captured tanks, if you are very lucky...but note if you have assembled enough forces to do this you have also put a sign around your neck stating 'Encircle Me Please'.

Note the game seems to have infinite supply, 3-4 month longer campaign season than historical, and the impact of the blizzard is known.

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RE: German tanks - 1/13/2020 1:51:39 AM

56ajax

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

On the other hand the Germans only produce a few tanks a week, whereas the Soviet side produces 100s. So you have to look at each side in tanks relative to their tank production. Even with that loss ratio the Soviet side may still be comparatively at an advantage?

Hello Tele,

A few tanks = 40 a week in June 41 and 66 a week in June 42. Not sure how the % production thingy impacts on that.

On those figures to completely rebuild a div in 41 would take a months + production.

The biggest impact on German tanks is not the enemy or distance travelled but the weather, and once the German player learns to park the panzers out of harms way during a blizzard, production is adequate.

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RE: German tanks - 1/13/2020 10:08:51 PM

xhoel

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@Mehring: Yeah your numbers are about right, 250 T-34/85 and 50 Shermans a week. Hmmm I really though they do. Or at least that's what the production window is showing. Your tank corp numbers seem to be quite normal and not overdone. Maybe there is a point there, but it is hard to say without having proper numbers.

@56ajax: No need to do so many hasty attacks. A proper strong attack by Guards will do the job just fine. Add air support to the mix and you will see the Panzers take losses. The days of soaking hasty attacks are long gone.
I don't see where you are seeing this infinite supply? Not saying that the supply system is perfect (far from it) but such claims are a bit excessive.

I don't agree with you at all on that. There are plenty of factors that take a toll on the panzers, the biggest one is enemy action. Forcing the panzers to fight will drain them quite quickly. Supply shortages, air bombing, distance traveled etc will all affect the attrition and panzer losses.

Even with all your Panzer divisions stacked away during the blizzard (which no one does, otherwise your front collapses) production is not enough to keep them up to full strength.

And I really don't see the problem with that. It simply allows the player to make a strategic choice: Either deploy more armored units to the front and protect the gains made during summer at the cost of losing a lot of AFVs and men or pull back, lose hard earned territory but protect some of your elite forces.

@TheLysander: Just to show you how overblown the games numbers are: If you load up the 43-45 GC and go through OOBs you will see that the Germans have around 7.000 AFVs. Of those only 2.279 are tanks (light, medium, heavy, CS).

In contrast the Soviets have around 20.500 AFVs, out of which 15.750 are tanks (light, medium, heavy, DD). So if you see the AFV numbers you have a ratio of 1:3 while if you only see the tanks that ratio goes up to 1:7. So trust me on this, the Germans you are facing have nowhere close to 8.000 tanks.

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< Message edited by xhoel -- 1/13/2020 10:10:31 PM >

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RE: German tanks - 1/14/2020 12:01:20 AM

56ajax

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Right,

Hi xhoel,

Guards? any sensible German will not play +1 Soviet bonus which creates Guards?? In my last game my hasty attacks did give extraordinary results eg double figures in destroyed and damaged though most of these losses were Pz1, 38T and BT7 so you get the impression you are clearing out redundant stock. And yes my opponent did leave 3 or 4 panzers in the front line during blizzard, but not for long....

Supply, well if the Axis can launch a full offensive on the first non blizzard turn in 1942, 4 months ahead of historical schedule, then perhaps supply is close to infinite. And partisans are an historical distraction that do bugger all, if there was someway I could secretly turn them off without my opponent knowing I would have done that T1.

And if you get a chance to drive a Panzer div through open country to the max you will damage 5-10% of your tanks and lose permanetly 10-20% of those damaged (PZ1, 38T etc)

Anyway, I think this game is more about supply, morale, experience, leadership and possibly fatigue and not much about weapons systems.

Also perhaps I am average at this game and like my countrymen have a tendency to fix bayonets and charge....

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Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

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Post #: 19

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German tanks