Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps

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Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/14/2020 8:08:30 PM

bjfagan

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I am curious why building a mountain corps requires 60 logistics (the same as a mech or armored corps) and a large infantry corps is 30? Between the two the infantry corps will have more trucks and heavier artillery, whereas the whole point to a mountain corps is to be lighter and more nimble for getting around the rougher terrain. I would think the mountain unit should be at 30 logistics or lower and the large infantry corps be at 30 or maybe higher at 40 or so.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/14/2020 8:27:11 PM

battlevonwar

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Think people build mountain cause it does not cost Oil. Maybe cheaper too and for a few countries only.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/14/2020 8:39:23 PM

ago1000

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Any unit INF, MECH, ARMOR, AIR off rail will cost 1/3 oil per turn. I don't really build them much. I may build the odd one to take advantage of the 15% bonus(attack & defence) in mountains in Italy.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/14/2020 9:03:09 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Mtn units are specialized. If they were 30 like any other infantry why wouldn't you build a mountain of them. Pun intended.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/14/2020 10:37:34 PM

AlbertN

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They cost more, and they have less firepower in general.

Costing more is not just upfront, it's also replacement business - main issue is that then Germany can have a winterized army.

Tbh Alvaro here I suggest a different approach and instead of having logistic per HP, units have their individual logistic cost. (So let's say a Mountain Unit can take 40 or 45 logistics instead of the 60). That would be more appropriate from my perspective.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/14/2020 10:53:47 PM

Jim D Burns

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The only mountain corps I build are for Italy due to the fact they cannot build full infantry corps. The cost is far too expensive in logistics capacity to build them for anyone else.

I've attacked Greece from Albania without going through Yugoslavia using just German infantry and I tried it with just Italian mountains. Both battles felt about the same, I did not notice any real advantage using the mountaineers in the mountains of Greece. Air power was the reason both attacks worked, troop type made no difference.

So for me I build them for Italy because a 20 strength corps simply cannot hold a hex vs. normal 30 strength infantry. That's the only value I see to the mountaineers.

Jim

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/14/2020 11:23:38 PM

AlbertN

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Well I personally believe Italy should have 30 sized corps or armies at least too. (Like Yugoslavia)

As it is now Italian troops are quite useless because they cannot be 'fat'; that ontop of being short of economics.

< Message edited by Cohen_slith -- 1/14/2020 11:24:19 PM >

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 12:37:12 AM

bjfagan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Mtn units are specialized. If they were 30 like any other infantry why wouldn't you build a mountain of them. Pun intended.

Yes that is why they take longer to build and cost more in production, but still does not explain the double cost in logistics. Logistics is not a way to make a unit more expensive just because you can, it should be used to imitate what it takes to operate the unit. A mountain unit would be lighter than a regular large infantry corps. Maybe make the mountain unit more expensive in a way that is more realistic way, such as longer training period and higher production costs.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 1:07:32 AM

battlevonwar

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I think he was going for a historical mirror the issue is most other armies can break their Large Corps into 3 divisions. While Italy is stuck with 20 Strength Corps that don't add or subtract. I would rather less 20 strengths and a few 30 Strengths. Even if it requires paying more than other nations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Well I personally believe Italy should have 30 sized corps or armies at least too. (Like Yugoslavia)

As it is now Italian troops are quite useless because they cannot be 'fat'; that ontop of being short of economics.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 1:17:37 AM

AlbertN

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Problem with Italian corps is that they are ultimately useless and cannot ever have a chance of holding their grounds.
Historical? Maybe. But for Gameplay sake it's not that easy. It may be good that they could mix with a German division to get to 30 but it would be a pain in that place to code.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 1:45:19 AM

battlevonwar

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Agreed, they are worse than Axis Minors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Problem with Italian corps is that they are ultimately useless and cannot ever have a chance of holding their grounds.
Historical? Maybe. But for Gameplay sake it's not that easy. It may be good that they could mix with a German division to get to 30 but it would be a pain in that place to code.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 1:50:28 AM

aspqrz02

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Arguably the additional logistics cost represents the unit's LACK of regular transport compared to even Leg Infantry Corps and the fact that Army level assets have to be assigned to supply it when it is operational.

Makes sense to me, anyway.

Phil McGregor

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 1:55:11 AM

AlvaroSousa

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Italian units were incredibly poor. Besides my research there is a very good video on this issue.

The soldiers were fine fighters
Their equipment was WW1 and they didnt have enough of it.
They had no gun to stop matildas
Their officer corps sucked
Basically... they really sucked.

Watch this and you will understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqoOk5nZEKw&t=201s

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 3:58:35 AM

aspqrz02

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Interestingly, Italian ARTILLERY units fought incredibly well in the Western Desert, often to the point of being destroyed ... or all their officers being killed, anyway (especially at Tobruk ... at least two Italian Artillery units at each end of the breakthrough had to be literally overrun before they gave in ... one by an Australian Infantry attack with fixed bayonets, IIRC, and the other by being overrun by tanks ... IIRC).

The thing was that being posted to the artillery meant you had to be literate and numerate at at least High School level ... so the gulf between the Officers and the men was much less than in the Infantry.

Evidently as late as the 1960s (early, I suspect) the average Italian conscript (from the South and from Sicily) basically got taught to read and write and something of a High School level education as part of their conscript service. Pre-war is was much much worse, and the conscripts in Infantry units were seen to be (and often were) *peasants* by the Officers, who treated them as such.

That and, as with many pre-WW2 armies, becoming an Officer was much more a matter of social status and political connections than of ability ... more so in the Axis Allies, Italy, Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria ... hence their often very poor performance over and above what their relatively poor levels of equipment might have indicated.

Phil McGregor

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 11:31:42 AM

AlbertN

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That fact is represented by the lack of Italian production - that is short handed. They struggle for replacements, to build adequate new units and upgrade them, etc.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 12:21:24 PM

tyronec

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IMO the Italians are well represented in the game.
Their economy was really not up to supporting the armed forces that they fielded.
They are desperately short of oil.
Their infantry is rubbish.
Their mountain troops and armored units are just about OK.
Probably their air force is too effective if used well.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 1:22:15 PM

AlbertN

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Just wait until Italians begin to take a pounding and see how hard it is for them to replace losses.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 2:09:02 PM

Flaviusx

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Italy is fine as is. The plain fact of the matter is that they need German stiffening for hard tasks, and that is as it should be. Even with that in mind, Italy is quite useful. It brings a sizable navy, a decent airforce, and a couple of mech units. With German help, they can actually build out their entire logistic pool and provide garrisons.

If you want to keep Italy in the war, you are going to have to support it with German production and German units. But it is well worth doing this given the other things they bring to the table.

See my own original AAR. I had Germany backing Italy to the hilt and kept Italy in the war all the way to 1945. That was a lot of VPs right there.

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/15/2020 10:32:52 PM

aspqrz02

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Apocryphal (but telling) story ...

Hitler is informed that Mussolini is about to enter the war and is concerned that it will be a problem since it obviously isn't prepared.

The General Staff is asked for advice.

It comes back ... "If Italy enters the war on our side we will have to provide 20 Divisions to support it. If it DOESN'T enter the war on our side we will have to garrison the Alpine passes with 20 Divisions in case she decides to go over to the Allies at some future point. Either case = we will have to commit 20 Divisions."

Phil McGregor

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RE: Logistics - Mountain vs Infantry Corps - 1/17/2020 6:28:13 AM

battlevonwar

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It's not that I mind Italy's frail Army it's just that it's set in stone meanwhile Yugoslavia(if you get them as Allies), Finland, Romania, Hungary have more interesting Unit Builds and modifications as far as infantry which is the backbone of a poor country. Italy doesn't really have a decent infantry to build aside Mountain for the packing 30 strength in 1 Hex...that or it's Mechs/Tanks...

Just like the USSR is plagued with it's frail rifle fodder Italy cannot really be restructured which would make for a more interesting 'build'...

A Romanian Infantry will be stronger makes no real sense to me? They weren't, neither were Hungarian. All suffered the same sort of situation and if you want to pay German Production to beef up an Italian Army with a low level of XP why not?

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