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Did you know this fact about CAP?

 
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Did you know this fact about CAP? - 7/15/2003 12:26:09 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Did you know this fact about CAP?


If your base is invaded the CAP over that base HEX will _NOT_ participate
in offensive air-to-air combat (i.e. help your attacking aircraft).

The CAP will only defend the base itself when attacked.

Please note that the CAP aircraft will be shown in "Combat Animations" but
they will not participate in offensive air-to-air combat (i.e. help your
attacking aircraft). The "Combat Replay" textual file will have correct list
of participating aircraft though.


The only way to fix this is (to use fighters from HEX under enemy invasion):

#1
Set fighters from HEX under enemy invasion to LRCAP its own HEX.

#2
Set fighters from HEX under enemy invasion to CAP 0% and hope your bombers
(and other aircraft) that come to that HEX to fight would be escorted by
fighters.


Leo "Apollo11"
Post #: 1
Opps... I stand corrected... - 7/17/2003 3:32:40 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Opps... I stand corrected...

Unfortunately the LRCAP over base itself will _NOT_ help your attacking
bombers.

It seems that the only way is to set fighters at base to "Escort" and CAP
percentage to 0% and hope for the best (i.e. that the fighters would fly
escort).

This is very nasty and unexpected surprise... :-(((


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. I wonder is anyone knew this...

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 2
- 7/17/2003 4:52:00 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		If both sides flew LRCAP (or one fly CAp and the other LRCAP) over the same hex, AFAIK there is no fight between fighters.

Except in one case: if transports (C-47 for example) fly in the hex. If there is a message of 'C-47 intercepted', Allied CAP planes will apparently fight.

Just a guess from the losses seen in one of my last PBEM.

Several times I see my P-40 based in PM suffer losses or score victories (and A6M2 were lost in air-to-air combat), only when C-47 try to land.

Then during the invasion of PM (two attempts and up to ten days of naval attacks), I never saw my fighters in PM try to escort my bombers flowing from Australia. And I never saw P-40 or Zeroes fall in unseen (at the screen) combat, as it was the case with C-47 interception.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 3
Are you 100% sure? - 7/17/2003 7:41:04 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmiralLaurent
[B]If both sides flew LRCAP (or one fly CAp and the other LRCAP) over the same hex, AFAIK there is no fight between fighters.

Except in one case: if transports (C-47 for example) fly in the hex. If there is a message of 'C-47 intercepted', Allied CAP planes will apparently fight.

Just a guess from the losses seen in one of my last PBEM.

Several times I see my P-40 based in PM suffer losses or score victories (and A6M2 were lost in air-to-air combat), only when C-47 try to land.

Then during the invasion of PM (two attempts and up to ten days of naval attacks), I never saw my fighters in PM try to escort my bombers flowing from Australia. And I never saw P-40 or Zeroes fall in unseen (at the screen) combat, as it was the case with C-47 interception. [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you sure about this (i.e. that not even fighters on "Escort" and CAP 0%
would escort bombers in their own HEX)?

Darn... darn... darn... :-(

If this is true then this is a bug since all 3 possibilities then don't
work... :-(((

CAP
LRCAP
CAP 0% (i.e. full "Escort")


Anyone else has first person experience with this?

Any more thoughts/ideas workarounds?


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 4
- 7/17/2003 7:58:38 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		Sorry, I was unclear, my fighters on PM were on rotating 100% CAP duties, not escort, I was thinking that they would escort bombers arriving in the hex, as they appear in the anim but they didn't fire or get fired at any moment during the aerial battles.

In my opinion, there should be fighting when two sides fly CAP over the same hex, in the same manner as a fighter sweep, except that attacking planes will arrive in small groups (and maybe that defending fighters will not be scrambled, only those allready in CAP may fight).

Right at the moment we have 20 Allied fighters turning over their frontline and base and some km away 20 Zeroes truning over their troops and ships. And they never met in the air.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 5
- 7/17/2003 8:22:30 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmiralLaurent
[B]Sorry, I was unclear, my fighters on PM were on rotating 100% CAP duties, not escort, I was thinking that they would escort bombers arriving in the hex, as they appear in the anim but they didn't fire or get fired at any moment during the aerial battles.

In my opinion, there should be fighting when two sides fly CAP over the same hex, in the same manner as a fighter sweep, except that attacking planes will arrive in small groups (and maybe that defending fighters will not be scrambled, only those allready in CAP may fight).

Right at the moment we have 20 Allied fighters turning over their frontline and base and some km away 20 Zeroes truning over their troops and ships. And they never met in the air. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ahhh... I see...

You are then just confirming what I posted in initial mail in this thread
(i.e. that CAP would not help your attacking bombers that come into that HEX
from some other base - in your case fighters are on CAP over PM while bombers
flew from Australia).


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 6
- 7/17/2003 10:46:08 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		Yes, but the interesting part is that CAp protects C-47.... so why not bombers ? It's like if CAP fighters always stay just above the base, so they may protect the transports trying to land but not the bombers some km away.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7
- 7/18/2003 12:21:12 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		LRCAP & CAP is for protection AGAINST attack (base/naval) at a hex, not for offensive missions.

ESCORT and SWEEP are offensive missions INTO a hex.

If nothing of yours is in the hex to be protected, the defensive boys are not going to help out.

The combat display with show the fighters because it shows the total numbers in the HEX, but as you watch it resolve, you will see that they did not take part.

Sweep = Anti-CAP

LR/CAP != Anti-CAP

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 8
- 7/18/2003 5:11:13 AM   
ADM Vincent

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/1/2000
From: Pittsburgh
Status: offline 		How does all this work with a CV TF in a port hex thrown into the mix?



Huh?

_____________________________

We best remember our forefathers admonition, "Avoid foreign entanglements, pursue American interests, defend American interests and for the current situation, prepare for the worst and hope for the best".

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 9
- 7/18/2003 5:43:17 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Exactly the same way with CV in hex.

Cap will jump in if the naval or base is attacked.

LRCap will jump in if the naval or base is attacked. (but poorly if it's a CV there)

Sweep will attempt to engage Cap/LRCap

Escort will attempt to engage Cap/LRCap

Cap will not engage Cap or LRCap

You could theoretically have 4+ completely separate air battles in the one hex, none of which would bump into each other :D

I'm not saying it makes a great deal of sense, but in order to have a controllable 1 day/1 order game, you have to have this level of abstraction.

Just remember, you choose what percentage of your fighters will be offensive and defensive based on the two choices of Sweep/Escort - Offensive with anywhere from 0% to 100% (LR)CAP - Defensive

By telling them to be CAP, you are ordering them to not engage unless what they are protecting is attacked.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 10
- 7/18/2003 5:49:15 AM   
ADM Vincent

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/1/2000
From: Pittsburgh
Status: offline 		HOLY CAP :eek:

_____________________________

We best remember our forefathers admonition, "Avoid foreign entanglements, pursue American interests, defend American interests and for the current situation, prepare for the worst and hope for the best".

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 11
- 7/18/2003 3:13:51 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]LRCAP & CAP is for protection AGAINST attack (base/naval) at a hex, not for offensive missions.

ESCORT and SWEEP are offensive missions INTO a hex.

If nothing of yours is in the hex to be protected, the defensive boys are not going to help out.

The combat display with show the fighters because it shows the total numbers in the HEX, but as you watch it resolve, you will see that they did not take part.

Sweep = Anti-CAP

LR/CAP != Anti-CAP [/B][/QUOTE]

Can you confirm that "Sweep" fighter mission over it's own HEX
would fight with enemy LRCAP and support your bombers over
your invaded base?


[U]Example from "AmiralLaurent's" post:[/U]

Port Moresby is in Allied hands and Japanese are invading it and
flying LRCAP over it. Would the "Sweep" mission for fighters
based in Port Moresby engage the Japanese LRCAP fighter over it
and thus defend the alied bombers that come from Australia to
bomb Japanese invasion force there?


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 12
- 7/18/2003 9:17:55 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Sweep missions only engage at a hostile base, otherwise they sit around and drink. Might want to *bug* that one as a sweep mission is a sweep mission. The target hex should not matter.

You can test this real quick. Just start scenario 19, set the Zeros at Rabaul to LRCAP PM and set the fighters at PM to Sweep PM. Check the pilots missions flown afterwards.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 13
- 7/18/2003 9:40:00 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Sweep missions only engage at a hostile base, otherwise they sit around and drink. Might want to *bug* that one as a sweep mission is a sweep mission. The target hex should not matter.

You can test this real quick. Just start scenario 19, set the Zeros at Rabaul to LRCAP PM and set the fighters at PM to Sweep PM. Check the pilots missions flown afterwards. [/B][/QUOTE]

So... the only way is the "Escort" mission with CAP to 0% and
hope that your incoming bombers will be escorted...


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 14
- 7/18/2003 11:13:34 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Yes, but remember you can assign the destination for the escort mission to make sure it goes to the right spot.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 15
- 7/18/2003 11:54:48 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Yes, but remember you can assign the destination for the escort mission to make sure it goes to the right spot. [/B][/QUOTE]

RGR.

But please note that destination set for "Escort" is not cast in stone and AI
routine that assigns flights can override it.

Best example is if there is no need for "Escort" in HEX you selected then the
fighters can be used elsewhere (I can confirm this 100% with example if
needed)...


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 16
Unfortunately this is a bug (nothing works)... :-( - 7/25/2003 4:09:51 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Unfortunately this is a bug (nothing works)... :-(


There is no way to have air support for your bombarding aircraft
that come from other HEX into your invaded HEX.

The fighters in invaded HEX would never ever escort your
incoming bombers no matter what you do:

Sweep
LRCAP
Escort and CAP > 0%
Escort and CAP = 0%


[U][B]Example:[/B][/U]

The biggest problem for allies is Port Moresby invasion.

If you have fighters in Port Moresby and bombers in Australia
there is no way you can protect your incoming bombers that
attempt to bomb enemy ships/troops.

:-(((


Does anyone have any other idea for workaround?


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 17
Shameless BUMP... - 7/27/2003 4:20:07 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Shameless BUMP...


I still hope that some workaround exists for this....


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 18
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