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Italy surrenders to paras !

 
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Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 5:46:09 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Just something to look out for, defend All your ports and ALL your internal city objectives.
Italy surrenders at the end of the turn and all those units just melt into the ether...




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Post #: 1
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 8:15:54 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline 		Oooh, sneaky

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 2
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 2:22:44 PM   
MVokt

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 7/1/2018
Status: offline 		That's ridiculous

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RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 2:30:15 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

That's ridiculous

My mistake for leaving Italy open.
That's the way the game works, you have set your garrisons right.

(in reply to MVokt)
Post #: 4
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 2:36:32 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Was the para intercepted? It should have been destroyed if he had no escorts.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
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Post #: 5
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 2:43:04 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Hard for some USA Escort fighter (assuming it's like '43 or so) not to be escorting something!
Given atm I only see UK units - but I agree a para seizing Milan should not warrant surrender of Italy.

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Post #: 6
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 2:57:18 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

Was the para intercepted? It should have been destroyed if he had no escorts.

No intercept despite all the aircraft in range, but there were ample Allied air units around so no reason for them not to have an escort. Or if necessary he could have soaked off the bombers with Naval moves.

I have no objection to this, it is no worse than losing a port and getting taken out that way. If you leave a port open in the wrong place at the wrong time you lose. Same with major cities in Italy.

I posted it to bring it to peoples attention so they don't make the same mistake.

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Post #: 7
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/1/2020 4:49:24 PM   
MVokt

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 7/1/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

That's ridiculous

My mistake for leaving Italy open.
That's the way the game works, you have set your garrisons right.

It's just that a paratrooper drop shouldn't trigger the surrender of a country. It also happened in CEAW.

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 8
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 3:52:53 AM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		I soaked up the fighter with a couple of stratbombing attacks as well as some airfield bombings. But I have the feeling that the fighter intercepted more then 2 times. Is that possible?

And yes it is extremely gamey and maybe the unit taking a city should have to be in supply to actually reduce the morale? Or at least let the opponent react one turn before the change actually happens.

With that said it is easy prevent. As soon as I declared war on Vichy you use any Axis minor units and move a unit to each city so it wont even interfere with German or Italian response since they have their own railcap.

If the game had been uncertain in its outcome I might not have done it maybe just mentioned that I could have. But again garrison everything you hold dear .

/MM


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Post #: 9
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 6:46:47 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

That's ridiculous

My mistake for leaving Italy open.
That's the way the game works, you have set your garrisons right.

It's just that a paratrooper drop shouldn't trigger the surrender of a country. It also happened in CEAW.


The game mechanics are clear. Countries surrender when they lose their cities. We may not think that is perfect but there has to be some sort of trigger for Italian surrender at this period of the war and whatever that trigger is it is going to be susceptible to players playing with that knowledge.

There is a simple counter to stop para drops triggering a surrender so just use it. To expect Alvaro to put in a change where paras don't trigger a surrender in these circumstances is unrealistic.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 10
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 7:06:02 AM   
Meteor2


Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Neverthes I am not convinced, that this mechanic is right.
A para unit in the middle of enemy territory without chance of being relieved, should not trigger anything.
Normally it should be out of ammo soon and surrender itself.
Italy surrendering after one drop does not feel right for me.

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 11
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 7:33:52 AM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		I remember playing a kid who was giving my sass on the forums in Strategic Command 1 or 2 I believe it was. I had him actually but he did a very gamey paradrop on Berlin itself and won the game. There are a lot of cities to garrison in Italy it really is a nightmare. Germany has to do the job honestly as Italy simply is too frail to guard itself.

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Post #: 12
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 7:39:25 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

Neverthes I am not convinced, that this mechanic is right.
A para unit in the middle of enemy territory without chance of being relieved, should not trigger anything.
Normally it should be out of ammo soon and surrender itself.
Italy surrendering after one drop does not feel right for me.

Agree

(in reply to Meteor2)
Post #: 13
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 8:27:17 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

Neverthes I am not convinced, that this mechanic is right.
A para unit in the middle of enemy territory without chance of being relieved, should not trigger anything.
Normally it should be out of ammo soon and surrender itself.
Italy surrendering after one drop does not feel right for me.

Probably we all agree that the mechanic is not right.
So just think about what you are suggesting, the city doesn't count as captured because what: It was captured by paras ? it was out of supply ? it was captured by a para drop ?
How are you going to implement that and if it was implemented what new problems would it cause ?

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 14
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 9:30:37 AM   
MVokt

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 7/1/2018
Status: offline 		In CEAW group it was once discussed to prohibit paratrooper landings directly into city hexes. So you give a 1 turn notice to your opponent had your paratrooper has landed adjacent to a city hex and intend to take it.

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Post #: 15
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 10:56:33 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline 		Tricky one. Dropping paratroopers on a city is unprecented IRL AFAIK. They are always dropped outside of cities (the Allies needed Eindhoven, Nijmegen and Arnhem but dropped them outside the cities).

Sure, at the scale of Warplan one could argue a hex is not one big city, but also the surroundings which are not built up. The hex however is treated as being entirely urban in the game. So from that perspective it is not unreasonable to not allow paratroopers jump on city hexes IMHO.

Still the problem remains if paratroopers can still move a hex after having been put on the ground. Just drop it besides the city, move one hex and you are done.

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/2/2020 10:59:07 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 11:54:04 AM   
Meteor2


Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline 		In Order of Battle, capturing a base is only relevant after some time.
A small flag rising shows that process.
Not a bad solution to show the slowly conversion.

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Post #: 17
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 12:02:43 PM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		Easier correction, up Italy's Morale 'some'.

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Post #: 18
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 2:57:55 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Why wasn't the paratrooper counter attacked?

Why wasn't there a unit in the backfield as a reserve?

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
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Post #: 19
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 3:04:22 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

Why wasn't the paratrooper counter attacked?

Why wasn't there a unit in the backfield as a reserve?

Quite agree, I should have been prepared for it - then there is no problem and no need for anyone to complain about the game system.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 20
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 3:19:15 PM   
MVokt

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 7/1/2018
Status: offline 		I'm just not only implying that a paratrooper unit shouldn't be allowed to directly jump into a city but also I'm referring to the fact that those units,that way, are not being used in a sensible way since they are dropped completely isolated and not linked to any land offensive as it occurred in D-Day or in Arhem.




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Post #: 21
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 5:00:10 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		This is easily prevented. A single division in Turin and Milan will stop it. I don't think it is worth making a bunch of complicated rules to address it.

The bottom line is this: if the Allies advance sufficiently in the Med, there will come a point in the game when Germans are going to have to help Italy to stay in the war and make a major commitment to holding on to the peninsula and even lending resources to the Italian economy so they can build the much despised Italian trash infantry which, point in fact, can stop these shenanigans.





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Post #: 22
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 7:04:02 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is easily prevented. A single division in Turin and Milan will stop it. I don't think it is worth making a bunch of complicated rules to address it.

The bottom line is this: if the Allies advance sufficiently in the Med, there will come a point in the game when Germans are going to have to help Italy to stay in the war and make a major commitment to holding on to the peninsula and even lending resources to the Italian economy so they can build the much despised Italian trash infantry which, point in fact, can stop these shenanigans.






You should have seen my defense of Italy in my last WIF game.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 23
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 7:08:22 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Question was the fighter in range really weak and destroyed or in good shape? Air units don't intercept if they are really weak.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 24
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/2/2020 10:19:29 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		This effect happens in other games and realistically cities should be garrisoned in war time, not because they can easily be attacked by para-troops, but to maintain control against events like the Warsaw uprising.

The game system is unrealistic, but it is forcing a realistic need to garrison cities.

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(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 25
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/3/2020 1:42:14 AM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Question was the fighter in range really weak and destroyed or in good shape? Air units don't intercept if they are really weak.

I don’t know the status of the fighter but I made 4 stratbomb missions and 4 airbase attacks on the unit itself before the drop was made.
I agree no special rules needed as I wrote above a Hungarian/Romanian division in each city will do it.
/MM

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 26
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/3/2020 2:38:12 AM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		Would a Division full entrenched(has to be German) be able to to prevent the Para from taking the city? Think so
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is easily prevented. A single division in Turin and Milan will stop it. I don't think it is worth making a bunch of complicated rules to address it.

The bottom line is this: if the Allies advance sufficiently in the Med, there will come a point in the game when Germans are going to have to help Italy to stay in the war and make a major commitment to holding on to the peninsula and even lending resources to the Italian economy so they can build the much despised Italian trash infantry which, point in fact, can stop these shenanigans.






(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 27
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/3/2020 2:53:30 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		of course. Para's arent that strong

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 28
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/3/2020 9:21:23 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The only way a sole paratrooper could take those cities defended by a single German division (or a trash Italian infantry corps) is if it was backed by a ton of airpower. I don't see that kind of airpower here, or even the basing for it.

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Post #: 29
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/3/2020 12:31:34 PM   
Emporer

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 2/12/2019
Status: offline 		Hi

This is the a sitiation which I have difficulties in every wargames where paras jumping around the map soley by them self. Paratroopers was allmost allwas used as part of a ground offensives to support it. So to solve this issue with paras, they should only be used on hexes adjacent to own ground forces.

Cheers
Captain Jack

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 30
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