Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Another explanation of why wearing masks help stop the spread. Not entirely sure it this works for girls too

I think the write-up Lowpe posted (#7765) is much more convincing.

Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous?

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

If it is coming out of your nose and you breathe it back in, you would be increasing yourviral load - some of which may get to your lungs.

I think that the masks would help for those workers at a meat packing plant taking those long bus rides. The same thing for field workers on a bus. Even just car pooling.

As mentioned, anything you or I say is baseless conjecture. Objective medical studies are the only thing that matters to sort these things out and for some I've seen wearing masks helps to prevent passing airborne viruses.

I do think you're missing the part about that same viral load having just passed out of your nose and going through your mask on the way out. Viruses are small.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Another explanation of why wearing masks help stop the spread. Not entirely sure it this works for girls too

I think the write-up Lowpe posted (#7765) is much more convincing.

Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous?

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

If it is coming out of your nose and you breathe it back in, you would be increasing yourviral load - some of which may get to your lungs.

I think that the masks would help for those workers at a meat packing plant taking those long bus rides. The same thing for field workers on a bus. Even just car pooling.

As mentioned, anything you or I say is baseless conjecture. Objective medical studies are the only thing that matters to sort these things out and for some I've seen wearing masks helps to prevent passing airborne viruses.

I do think you're missing the part about that same viral load having just passed out of your nose and going through your mask on the way out. Viruses are small.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

State unemployment compensation funds are nominally paid for by employers and employees in a prospective fashion. This is quite a rational system in the sense that it seems to let the taxpayers (in general) off the hook. Of course, it's not really "insurance" in the truest sense because there is no risk adjustment, in fact, perversely, those at the lowest risk of needing it pay the most..but hey..it's government.

The good news is the money goes into a fund to be paid out when needed. The bad news is essentially NO STATE planned for a downturn as historically disastrous as the artificial situation provoked by COVID 19. California's fund was supposed to last 20 months in a standard downturn. It lasted about 5 weeks. It's gone. California is BORROWING money from the feds which has to be paid back. The feds are BORROWING it from T-bill purchasers and IT has to be paid back. Fortunately, the economic outlook is so bad, half the world is rushing to buy US T-bills because they are "safe".

Many other states are in the same s***swirl. God only knows how many municipal BK's are on the horizon. The point is...the costs of the lockdown are heating up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

One way valve masks are becoming popular for the public. They are more pleasant to wear because you exhaust the water vapor and CO2 through a one-way valve.

Of course, this doesn't protect anyone around you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Gotta love the NY Post.

More people opting to go nude during quarantine

https://nypost.com/2020/05/14/more-people-opting-to-go-nude-during-quarantine/

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I suspect how state's run these things vary greatly. Pennsylvania is notoriously a slush fund that got horribly abused.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Colorado changing the way they count deaths. I wonder how many other states will follow suit?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-lowers-coronavirus-death-count

I' sure you will see lots of changes in the way deaths are counted or if they are counted at all. Nebraska doesn't count the sick at the meat packing plants because it makes the rest of the state look bad. Not sure if they are counting the dead in those places. Florida only counts you dead from Corona if you are are a citizen of the State of Florida. If you are from out of state you don't count. Florida has hid lots of the nursing home deaths too. FOIA requests eventually get them but they have made a conscious effort to hide numbers. Every State seems to be not reporting nursing home deaths accurately. CDC official numbers are much lower than Johns Hopkins. They say it takes 3 weeks to tally the numbers but who knows? Once there are many truths who can tell any more?

I hate to ask this but I'm totally curious - is this a red state VS blue state thing in regards to reporting? Do you think some states are inflating their numbers?

quote:

I hate to ask this but I'm totally curious - is this a red state VS blue state thing in regards to reporting? Do you think some states are inflating their numbers?

Not sure but don't think so. What is also interesting is what States are opening dispite not meeting CDC guidelines. You might ask why a state would do that? Economics, real or what they want to seem real. A state that mandates closed business needs to pay unemployment benefits to those that are unemployed due to state orders to close business. Don't want to pay unemployment benefits? No problem. Announce that all business are open. Anyone refusing to work in those business, not matter how dangerous, loses their unemployment benefits. Not great choices there

Let us not forget that the CDC and doctors want to fight the virus. They don't have to worry about the economy, education, the public's other concerns, and other things.

If the employee is recovering from Covid-19, taking care of someone who has it, and/or on quarantine otherwise for exposure, they will not lose their job.

I hope that's true, I don't know that's true. Lets take the case of the meat packing plants. Already a dangerous job and now we have added Covid. Everyone gets sick, people die we close the plants. Presidents says meat is essential, invokes the defense production act and forces the plants open. Employees can't claim unemployment, they can't not report to work or they lose their jobs. They continue to get sick and die. State decides that makes the numbers look bad so they stop reporting those numbers. I assume if the numbers were good they would report them no? So, workers getting sick and dying, plant can't close, workers have no choice but to report, still getting sick, not information available as to how sick. What could possibly be worse? Sending Lawyers, and lobbyists and Senators to Washington to make sure the plant is protected against any liability. What protection do the workers have?????? ZERO. This is called exploitation. This is wrong. This is immoral. This is America in 2020

I believe that you are incorrect. Maybe read this, I believe it has been posted before:

Meat and Poultry Processing Workers and Employers
Interim Guidance from CDC and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organizations/meat-poultry-processing-workers-employers.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Colorado changing the way they count deaths. I wonder how many other states will follow suit?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-lowers-coronavirus-death-count

I' sure you will see lots of changes in the way deaths are counted or if they are counted at all. Nebraska doesn't count the sick at the meat packing plants because it makes the rest of the state look bad. Not sure if they are counting the dead in those places. Florida only counts you dead from Corona if you are are a citizen of the State of Florida. If you are from out of state you don't count. Florida has hid lots of the nursing home deaths too. FOIA requests eventually get them but they have made a conscious effort to hide numbers. Every State seems to be not reporting nursing home deaths accurately. CDC official numbers are much lower than Johns Hopkins. They say it takes 3 weeks to tally the numbers but who knows? Once there are many truths who can tell any more?

I hate to ask this but I'm totally curious - is this a red state VS blue state thing in regards to reporting? Do you think some states are inflating their numbers?

quote:

I hate to ask this but I'm totally curious - is this a red state VS blue state thing in regards to reporting? Do you think some states are inflating their numbers?

Not sure but don't think so. What is also interesting is what States are opening dispite not meeting CDC guidelines. You might ask why a state would do that? Economics, real or what they want to seem real. A state that mandates closed business needs to pay unemployment benefits to those that are unemployed due to state orders to close business. Don't want to pay unemployment benefits? No problem. Announce that all business are open. Anyone refusing to work in those business, not matter how dangerous, loses their unemployment benefits. Not great choices there

Let us not forget that the CDC and doctors want to fight the virus. They don't have to worry about the economy, education, the public's other concerns, and other things.

If the employee is recovering from Covid-19, taking care of someone who has it, and/or on quarantine otherwise for exposure, they will not lose their job.

I hope that's true, I don't know that's true. Lets take the case of the meat packing plants. Already a dangerous job and now we have added Covid. Everyone gets sick, people die we close the plants. Presidents says meat is essential, invokes the defense production act and forces the plants open. Employees can't claim unemployment, they can't not report to work or they lose their jobs. They continue to get sick and die. State decides that makes the numbers look bad so they stop reporting those numbers. I assume if the numbers were good they would report them no? So, workers getting sick and dying, plant can't close, workers have no choice but to report, still getting sick, not information available as to how sick. What could possibly be worse? Sending Lawyers, and lobbyists and Senators to Washington to make sure the plant is protected against any liability. What protection do the workers have?????? ZERO. This is called exploitation. This is wrong. This is immoral. This is America in 2020

I believe that you are incorrect. Maybe read this, I believe it has been posted before:

Meat and Poultry Processing Workers and Employers
Interim Guidance from CDC and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organizations/meat-poultry-processing-workers-employers.html

That is a nice poster they created. We have a similar bunch hanging around my shop from the CDC and OSHA. My favorite part is when they tell people in addition to the mask they should stay 6 feet apart........at a meat packing plant......Not the photos and videos I've seen. My point is the guidance is terrific, but that's all it is. Who is enforcing it? What happens to a worked if he reports a violation? Does the plant have inspectors enforcing this? And what if the company violates this guidance? What are they going to do? Shut it down? Of course not. That's the point. The company can do whatever the want because the government has got their back. Forgive me if I don't believe that large corporate interests, (in the case of Smithfield owned by China)give a rats ass about the lowest rung of the American workforce

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Another explanation of why wearing masks help stop the spread. Not entirely sure it this works for girls too

I think the write-up Lowpe posted (#7765) is much more convincing.

Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous?

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

Why is Sweden not recommending face masks to the public?
https://www.thelocal.se/20200514/explained-why-is-sweden-not-recommending-face-masks-to-the-public

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

As far as the meat packing goes, one place where a lot of undocumented (illegal immigrant) workers were gone, the line for applicants stretched around the block. That was in the densely populated state of Iowa. That was just one situation, there are others.

As far as that kind of job, it is an incentive to better yourself to get a better job. Either in pay or working conditions. It does teach valuable job skills like being at a certain place, at a certain time, and be ready to work. Sadly, too many people don't have those skills.

I could post other things, but that could get difficult. PMs are welcomed to discuss things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

As far as the meat packing goes, one place where a lot of undocumented (illegal immigrant) workers were gone, the line for applicants stretched around the block. That was in the densely populated state of Iowa. That was just one situation, there are others.

As far as that kind of job, it is an incentive to better yourself to get a better job. Either in pay or working conditions. It does teach valuable job skills like being at a certain place, at a certain time, and be ready to work. Sadly, too many people don't have those skills.

I could post other things, but that could get difficult. PMs are welcomed to discuss things.

Yeah...about that. You've seen the current unemployment rate right? Where are these "better jobs"?

I think you've a narrow view on it - skills is absolutely a component, but there needs to be opportunity to apply those skills. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, so it's a challenge for, say, meat plant workers to get a new suit (and that assumes that the job is local and doesn't involve any transport costs).

The "bootstraps" narrative hasn't been working as many think it does for quite some time...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

As far as the meat packing goes, one place where a lot of undocumented (illegal immigrant) workers were gone, the line for applicants stretched around the block. That was in the densely populated state of Iowa. That was just one situation, there are others.

As far as that kind of job, it is an incentive to better yourself to get a better job. Either in pay or working conditions. It does teach valuable job skills like being at a certain place, at a certain time, and be ready to work. Sadly, too many people don't have those skills.

I could post other things, but that could get difficult. PMs are welcomed to discuss things.

Yeah...about that. You've seen the current unemployment rate right? Where are these "better jobs"?

I think you've a narrow view on it - skills is absolutely a component, but there needs to be opportunity to apply those skills. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, so it's a challenge for, say, meat plant workers to get a new suit (and that assumes that the job is local and doesn't involve any transport costs).

The "bootstraps" narrative hasn't been working as many think it does for quite some time...

Well then, since the economies are not going to get better, quit letting in the immigrants. Especially since so many are going to decide to retire early, there won't be any job openings. Nope, none at all.

quote:

There are places that accept donated clothing for job seekers.

quote:

As far as people living paycheck to paycheck, is that because they have a house payment, a car payment, a truck payment, a boat payment, an ATV payment and a snowmobile payment? Maybe even more than one ATV and/or snowmobile that they are paying on?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Another explanation of why wearing masks help stop the spread. Not entirely sure it this works for girls too

I think the write-up Lowpe posted (#7765) is much more convincing.

Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous?

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

Why is Sweden not recommending face masks to the public?
https://www.thelocal.se/20200514/explained-why-is-sweden-not-recommending-face-masks-to-the-public

Thanks. Looks like the first confirms wearing a mask helps. It also calls into question Blaylock's entire premiss as he quotes and states;

“None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection." Keep in mind, no studies have been done to demonstrate that either a cloth mask or the N95 mask has any effect on transmission of the COVID-19 virus.

This from the study you posted.

We detected coronavirus in respiratory droplets and aerosols in 3 of 10 (30%) and 4 of 10 (40%) of the samples collected without face masks, respectively, but did not detect any virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols collected from participants wearing face masks, this difference was significant in aerosols and showed a trend toward reduced detection in respiratory droplets (Table 1b).

--------------------

We also demonstrated the efficacy of surgical masks to reduce coronavirus detection and viral copies in large respiratory droplets and in aerosols (Table 1b). This has important implications for control of COVID-19, suggesting that surgical face masks could be used by ill people to reduce onward transmission.

The Swedish concern seems more about human behaviour rather than the efficacy of face masks. They state;

"Face masks in public spaces do not provide any greater protection to the population," Johan Carlson from the Swedish Public Health Agency Folkhälsomyndigheten said at a press conference on May 13th.

Swedish health authorities argue that keeping a distance, washing your hands, not touching your face, and staying at home if you experience any symptoms are still the best ways to halt the spread of the coronavirus. There is a concern that wearing face masks would make people follow these guidelines less strictly.

Public spaces most likely means outside, where masks would obviously be less necessary. They failed to mention that masks are most protective of the person next to the person wearing one, rather than the wearer.

The EU infectious disease advice is contrary to Swedish policy, as quoted in this article.

The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, the EU's infectious disease agency, at the start of April advised EU governments that masks could be helpful in reducing transmission.

"A face mask may help reduce the spread of infection in the community by minimising the excretion of respiratory droplets from infected individuals who may not even know they are infected and before they develop any symptoms," it reported.

So please wear face masks. Not for you, but for someone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Of course this is true and I'm sure most of the people that work in these places are trying to better their situation or if not for them, for their children. The problem is the world has changed overnight and the worker got the short end of things fairly quickly. The plants got shut down because people were getting sick. That's the right thing to do. It's what happened after that that is troubling.

As for crappy jobs? We have all had them. Ever see the guy on the road crew raking the hot asphalt out of the truck and onto the road on a blasting hot day? That was me one summer. Got great money for that......but my grades got a lot better the next semester. I don't mind a hard days work but I wasn't going to do manual labor for the rest of my life. Meat packing has a large percentage of 1st generation immigrants working those jobs. Also part of the America story. Last guy in gets the jobs nobody else wants to do, but you want better for the next generation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

As far as the meat packing goes, one place where a lot of undocumented (illegal immigrant) workers were gone, the line for applicants stretched around the block. That was in the densely populated state of Iowa. That was just one situation, there are others.

As far as that kind of job, it is an incentive to better yourself to get a better job. Either in pay or working conditions. It does teach valuable job skills like being at a certain place, at a certain time, and be ready to work. Sadly, too many people don't have those skills.

I could post other things, but that could get difficult. PMs are welcomed to discuss things.

Yeah...about that. You've seen the current unemployment rate right? Where are these "better jobs"?

I think you've a narrow view on it - skills is absolutely a component, but there needs to be an opportunity to apply those skills. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, so it's a challenge for, say, meat plant workers to get a new suit (and that assumes that the job is local and doesn't involve any transport costs).

The "bootstraps" narrative hasn't been working as many think it does for quite some time...

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Another explanation of why wearing masks help stop the spread. Not entirely sure it this works for girls too

I think the write-up Lowpe posted (#7765) is much more convincing.

Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. I got the impression that a number of the figures he cited from studies were of surgeons and nurses wearing surgical masks during surgeries, not N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous? He explained how containing it could often result in it being introduced into the brain through the olefactory nerves.

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Of course this is true and I'm sure most of the people that work in these places are trying to better their situation or if not for them, for their children. The problem is the world has changed overnight and the worker got the short end of things fairly quickly. The plants got shut down because people were getting sick. That's the right thing to do. It's what happened after that that is troubling.

As for crappy jobs? We have all had them. Ever see the guy on the road crew raking the hot asphalt out of the truck and onto the road on a blasting hot day? That was me one summer. Got great money for that......but my grades got a lot better the next semester. I don't mind a hard days work but I wasn't going to do manual labor for the rest of my life. Meat packing has a large percentage of 1st generation immigrants working those jobs. Also part of the America story. Last guy in gets the jobs nobody else wants to do, but you want better for the next generation.

Lols, John. My older brother had the same job. He said the only upside was once they came across a case of beer some underage drinkers stashed one day.

My first job was as a dishwasher. If you have just a little bit of drive and ambition you aren't stuck in that entry level job for long. I well remember my first holiday busboy earnings.

Back to meatpackers, 70% of teh beef consumed in the US is from UFCW plants. A pretty impressive number.