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RE: OT The P39

 
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RE: OT The P39 - 3/20/2020 1:31:44 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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by the time the Hurricanes got their cannons, they were used mostly as fighter-bombers so the change makes sense even if it reduces maneuverability


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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 4:38:13 AM   
DanielAClark

 

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I was never one to think that the German airframes were all that great post 1939. After all, the advantage the German air force had wasn't necessarily the brilliance of their equipment...but the competence of their officer corps.

With that assumption, it makes some sense that the P39 performed acceptably on the Eastern Front.

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 7:48:18 AM   
Sardaukar


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P-63 Kingcobra was what P-39 should have been.

Just that it came so late that there was no need for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-63_Kingcobra

And about P-39 use as ground attack plane primarily by Soviets vs. Germans is totally false.

A common Western misconception is that the Bell fighters were used as ground attack aircraft.

One of the enduring myths regarding the P-39/P-63 in Soviet use is that because of its armament, in particular the 37mm nose cannon, it excelled as a ground-attack aircraft, even a 'tank buster'. In translating and preparing this manuscript for publication, I have had the opportunity to peruse several Russian-language sources. Mentions of the employment of this aircraft in the ground-attack role are so rare in these sources as to be exceptional ... The 'tank buster' myth has its roots in the misunderstanding of the general wartime role of the Red Air Force and in the imprecise translation of specific Russian-Language terms that describe this role. The specific Russian-Language term most often used to describe the mission and role of the Airacobra-equipped Red Air Force fighter units, in this manuscript and other Russian-language sources, is prikrytiye sukhoputnykh voysk [coverage of ground forces]... Frequent misunderstanding in this country as to the combat role of the P-39 in Soviet use is based in part on imprecise translation of the term prikrytiye sukhoputnykh voysk to 'ground support'. The latter term as it is understood by many Western military historians and readers, suggests the attacking of ground targets in support of ground troops, also called 'close air support'. Did a Soviet Airacobra pilot ever strafe a German tank? Undoubtedly. But this was never a primary mission or strong suit for this aircraft.

— Soviet Army Colonel Dmitry Loza, Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks: The World War II Memoirs of Hero of the Soviet Union, Dmitriy Loza, Loza and Gebhardt 2002, pp. 15–16.


In other words, "coverage of ground forces" aka CAP, not CAS or ground support.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 3/23/2020 8:02:55 AM >


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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 8:10:15 AM   
BBfanboy


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I would think that the 37mm ammo for attacking aircraft would not be all that useful against tanks. There would have to be an armour-piercing round to kill the tank.

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 1:12:23 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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yes, but most of the "tanks" killed where actually trucks or halftracks

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 1:15:46 PM   
Sardaukar


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P-63 and P-39 in Manchuria by Red Army Air (VVS) were used also in ground attack...there was lack of other targets.

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 4:54:37 PM   
pontiouspilot


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37mm would likely suffice on top surfaces of tank...at least to disable. The Germans mounted a 37mm slung under a Stuka that was supposedly an effective tank killer.

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 5:03:10 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

37mm would likely suffice on top surfaces of tank...at least to disable. The Germans mounted a 37mm slung under a Stuka that was supposedly an effective tank killer.

Yes, I read about that in Rudel's book Stuka Pilot. The Stukas dove and aimed for the engine compartment on the tank because that was where the least armour was, but they used an anti-tank round rather than the fragmentation type round that would be used against a bomber.

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 5:05:38 PM   
pontiouspilot


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Rudel was "a piece of work"...amazing pilot. His post-war antics made him persona non gratia in most circles

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 5:10:31 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Rudel was "a piece of work"...amazing pilot. His post-war antics made him persona non gratia in most circles

Yes, his writing comes across as arrogant and self-congratulatory. Much different from Adolf Galland's "The First and the Last" about fighter pilots.

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/23/2020 6:47:43 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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The Russians had AP ammo for their NS-37 cannons; these were deployed in Il-2s, Yak-9Ts, and Lagg-3s

The M4s on Russian P-39s, used HE, so they were probably not used in tank busting

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/24/2020 1:39:07 PM   
Barb


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NS-37 was a post war cannon used in MIG-9, MIG-15, MIG-17.

Il-2 used 23mm VYa-23 cannon with muzzle velocity of 905m/s (2,969 ft/s) for AP, HEI, HEI-T ammo.
Ju-87G used BK3,7 cannon with muzzle velocity 1,170–780m/s (3,800–2,600 ft/s) for APCR ammo.
P-39 used M4 autocannon with muzzle velocity of just 610m/s (2,000 ft/s) for AP/HE ammo. No AP Ammo was provided to the soviets.

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RE: OT The P39 - 3/24/2020 1:49:50 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Not according to wikipedia:

WW2 NS-37
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudelman-Suranov_NS-37

vs
post war N-37
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudelman_N-37

Yak-9T was a a variant specifically designed to use that cannon

"Yak-9T
Yak-9 armed with a 37 mm Nudelman-Suranov NS-37 cannon with 30 rounds instead of the 20 mm ShVAK, cockpit moved 0.4 m (1 ft 3 in) back to compensate for the heavier nose. Initially poor quality control led to multiple oil and coolant leaks from cannon recoil. Recoil and limited supply of ammunition required accurate aiming and two-three round bursts. Yak-9T was widely used against enemy shipping on the Black Sea and against tanks (the cannon could penetrate up to 30 mm armor from 500 m), but was also successful against aircraft with a single cannon hit usually sufficient to tear apart the target. Virage (constant altitude and velocity turn) time: 18–19 seconds. 2748 were produced.[14] "

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/24/2020 1:51:26 PM >


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