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Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/29/2020 11:02:06 AM   
mark dolby

 

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Get lead group fixation?
I had a raid come in @100 strong high over the North Sea. Only about 8 deleted Gruppen could cover this. They started to attack but straight away I could see it was wrong. Rather than attacking as a whole formation, 3 at a time were firing their rockets. I knew a pathfinder unit must be leading and this was confirmed when the last was damaged and turned back. ALL my fighters followed this lone B-17G leaving 3 bomb groups to continue without harassment. They were not able to chase the others until this last bomber (Capt. Grigsby) was shot down and then most had used too much fuel to engage.
I listed this once before in the Tech support/strange happenings.
Hope something can be done about it.
Post #: 1
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/29/2020 1:38:43 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		I have some ideas how to fix this.

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RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/29/2020 11:54:03 PM   
joey


Posts: 1408
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Johnstown, PA
Status: offline 		On a related point, during the night phase, I end up having to reassign night fighters by the dozen every minute or so. I assign them to intercept a raid. They react properly. Once the raid is lost on radar ( I assume this is the reason), the night fighters turn green and begin to return to base. I have to constantly reassign them back to the original raid assigned. So I end up redirecting my night fighters over and over again every minute or so. Is this correctable? j

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Post #: 3
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/30/2020 5:45:17 AM   
mark dolby

 

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I think this is to do with RAF countermeasures.
Do you ever notice how when you get within a few miles of a bomber stream with a Gruppe of NF and then assign them to interception of one the red squares (preferably 28 or larger, I find the 27 size are mostly Allied NF) quite often the whole Gruppe splits with 2-4 NF each moving to different target groups?
Now when they do this and turn green instead of white it's because German speaking RAF aircrew (I think actually in the bombers flying in the stream) are giving them new false orders.
You see it and are on top of it. This generally happens only when you set a Gruppe to final intercept and will last 3-5 minute turnovers. Just stay with it and keep putting those pilots back on the correct orders. I don't mind as I can redirect those flights to even out my interception of the bomber stream rather than sometimes a whole Gruppe following one single Allied plot.
Not every Gruppe is fooled by the RAF and it doesn't happen with every raid, but it's not a glitch in the program AFAIK.

Note, sometimes a few of your plots will turn green and return home because the bomber they were hunting has either been shot down by another NF or crashed. Simply, just reassign them a target or move back towards the bomber stream.

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RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/30/2020 6:37:38 AM   
Johntxic

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 5/4/2019
Status: offline 		Often by courtesy of 101 Sqn, Mark. At least in real life; I'm not sure their ECCM abilities are reflected when they are included in a raid.

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Post #: 5
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/30/2020 11:56:37 AM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		I'm finding that much of the electronic warfare elements are not WAD due to old coding and data errors. German aircraft radar systems (active) are being treated as radar detectors (passive) which, except for Naxos and Flensburg, is not correct. A/C radar was also being improperly classified as a navigation device which it isn't. Also the GEE Nav system was not even defined in the code and ELINT capabilities were borked in the data. To top it all off, the 1944 scenarios miss out on 5 months worth of important developments in technology upgrades. At least ground radar detection and jamming looks good.

All of this is fixed. In testing I'm seeing lots of FuG 220-SN use, and even messages that ELINT (Electronic Intelligence) is "transmitting data" on Axis radar types, which improves the development of allied countermeasures.

We will have to include a write up on e-warfare since it can be confusing to players not familiar with it. For me, playing "CMANO" lit up a lot of light bulbs in my head about e-warfare and it helped me to sift through the intent of the different devices in EDBTR.

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Post #: 6
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/30/2020 2:17:02 PM   
mark dolby

 

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		That's good. I do get the Elint transmitting messages occasionally, on Fug 202 etc. Even on the SN2 in September '43. That might need looking at as the RAF were unaware of SN2 or at least how to jam it until a Ju88G landed in Britain by mistake in 7/44.

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Post #: 7
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/30/2020 3:07:39 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		AFAIR the Woddbridge incident led to jamming of early FuG 220 sets (a certain frequency range was jammed) but a later revision operated on a different frequency range, that's why they switched from vertical to diagonal antenna masts.
Would it be possible to use something like 220a/c sets to have the a sets considered jammed by 8/44 but the c-sets not?

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Post #: 8
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/30/2020 3:55:09 PM   
joey


Posts: 1408
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Johnstown, PA
Status: offline 		I never gave RAF countermeasures a thought. I assumed it was a coding issue that could be fixed. Boy was I off.

I am glad to see some improvements are in the pipeline to fix some electronic warfare issues. I often wondered why night bombing and night interceptions did not work as I expected.

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Post #: 9
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/31/2020 5:48:27 AM   
mark dolby

 

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Joey, check out the forum page 'the war room' sub category 'electronic warfare'.
You will find a good description of all the ecm/eccm devices and how they SHOULD work.
Mark.

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Post #: 10
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 3/31/2020 3:03:49 PM   
joey


Posts: 1408
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Johnstown, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark dolby

Joey, check out the forum page 'the war room' sub category 'electronic warfare'.
You will find a good description of all the ecm/eccm devices and how they SHOULD work.
Mark.


Thank Mark. After you mentioned this, I looked up the forum page. You are correct when saying the "how they should work." I wonder how much these issues impact the overall game. They must to some degree, as my kill rates as the Germans with respect to Bomber Command has always been low compared to historical kill rates.

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Post #: 11
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 4/1/2020 5:44:11 AM   
mark dolby

 

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Sometimes I get really good nights and others just don't make sense. RAF should be improved as well. Looking forward to interceptions well away from the cities and not just in the firelight!

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Post #: 12
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 4/1/2020 5:05:24 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

AFAIR the Woddbridge incident led to jamming of early FuG 220 sets (a certain frequency range was jammed) but a later revision operated on a different frequency range, that's why they switched from vertical to diagonal antenna masts.
Would it be possible to use something like 220a/c sets to have the a sets considered jammed by 8/44 but the c-sets not?

We would just have to introduce a new Axis aircraft radar device into the database and add some code to account for it. If we are OK to do that then it can be done from what I can see. So that would render the Piperjack obsolete and nothing else to jam the 220 or the 240.

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Post #: 13
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 4/2/2020 2:55:36 AM   
warshipbuilder


Posts: 1960
Joined: 2/23/2013
From: C-eh-n-eh-d-eh
Status: offline
quote:

So that would render the Piperjack obsolete and nothing else to jam the 220 or the 240.
Don't like that idea. For every ying, there needs to be a yang.

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ED/BTR Ressurection Project
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Post #: 14
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 4/4/2020 10:50:15 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		AFAIR there were different versions of Serrate and Piperack that were upgraded/adapted through the time to be capable of tracking new enemy radars.
When do you have Piperack available for use in the game?

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Post #: 15
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 4/6/2020 12:59:00 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

AFAIR there were different versions of Serrate and Piperack that were upgraded/adapted through the time to be capable of tracking new enemy radars.
When do you have Piperack available for use in the game?

Slowly start to install in September 1944.

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simovitch


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Post #: 16
RE: Surely the Luftwaffe should not - 4/10/2020 1:33:11 PM   
joey


Posts: 1408
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Johnstown, PA
Status: offline 		Simovitch, once these radar devices issues are fixed, will air to air combat be possible between night interceptors and night raiders during A/C landings? As it is now, a night raider can sit over an airfield and pick off radar equipped night interceptors. One would think instead of a turkey shoot for the raider- it would instead result in air to air combat between the two.

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Post #: 17
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