How to create/manage a fuel depot?

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How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/17/2020 2:51:59 AM

Zhuikin

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/15/2020
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So the situation is like this:

I have a system with the super Luxury thingy, that i am protecting with a automated fleet on defense posture.
And it works fine, until the fleet needs fuel.
The system has no fuel source of it's own, so the fleet goes gallivanting across my empire.

The planet in the system does have a large spaceport, my empire has tons of fuel - just not on location - and i constantly see freighters idling at spaceports, so the cargo capacity is fine as well.
They just seem to place no priority, to moving the fuel around.

I tried to manually order the fleet, to refuel locally, in hopes that the created "demand" will cause deliveries and it kinda does for that one refuel cycle, but it has no lasting effect.

So, is there a way to create a fuel depot?

< Message edited by Zhuikin -- 5/17/2020 2:53:24 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/17/2020 5:27:20 AM

Retreat1970

Posts: 948
Joined: 11/6/2013
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

You're using solar panels right? On the ships? If they aren't moving they shouldn't eat fuel. Maybe I remember wrong. Also the private sector does what it does. Bacon's mod lets you be in more control, again if I remember right.

(in reply to Zhuikin)

Post #: 2

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/17/2020 6:44:12 AM

Zhuikin

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline

You are correct about Panels. But i don't like them on military ships.
The only military ships, that aren't moving, are reserve fleets - these i just park, where fuel is abundant.
Automated warships in particular always move. Even on defensive posture they end up shuffling around, patrolling or doing some other AI-stuff. Also the fleet does a lot of fighting burning fuel.

At any rate, while solar panels might prolong the time on station a little, it's not a solution for bad infrastructure.

Bacon i'm unsure about.
It does a lot of interesting things, but also changes a lot of things, that do not need changing in my taste.
I'll have to give it a try after all. Thx for the tip!

< Message edited by Zhuikin -- 5/17/2020 6:48:20 AM >

(in reply to Retreat1970)

Post #: 3

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/17/2020 12:42:46 PM

sneo24

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/4/2018
Status: offline

Doesnt work that way.
You can use some byplay to avoid this, but it's always present.
- One version of Gas Station with plenty of cargo bays where you stop you fleets for refuel + no independent units patroling scorting.
- One version of modified military ship with gas stractors and cargo bays. It will "mine" the indicated planet even if it has a mine on it. BUT it will download it's cargo in the NEAREST planet

I use this REFINERY system of big stations and always have fuel. It's a lot of min-max and most people dont like that.
I use the modified ship a lot in the first 30 years but only in my capital. the moment you add another colony to your home system it will disrupt your mining.

Another way is to use hydrogen fuel for the private sector and caslon for the military or viceversa. It's midgame and your problem still is not fixed.

I tried a gigantic station over the star with a lot of energy to fuel converters and cargo bays, never worked.

(in reply to Zhuikin)

Post #: 4

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/17/2020 4:04:59 PM

Siddham

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Joined: 3/18/2012
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The way to do it is to put energy collectors on your system defense ships; making sure to exceed the static energy use by a decent margin.
Park them near the star where they will get plenty of energy and make sure the global setting in the options menu is set to attack system targets.
No need to use a posture. They will just sit in that spot using no fuel and will only move if an enemy enters the system.
If they have sufficient surplus of ECs you wont need to reposition them. They will be able to get enough energy no matter where in the system they end up.

(in reply to sneo24)

Post #: 5

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/17/2020 7:45:10 PM

SirHoraceHarkness

Posts: 400
Joined: 5/17/2015
Status: offline

Why not use a constructor to build a few defense bases around your mine?

(in reply to Siddham)

Post #: 6

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/17/2020 8:07:51 PM

Retreat1970

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From: Wisconsin
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Well, imo, not putting panels on ships to cram one extra gun or engine is silly (unless you're RP). Military fleets spend 90% of the time just sitting around.

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)

Post #: 7

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/19/2020 7:48:59 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
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From: The Big Nowhere
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My solution to this problem is to build a star base with gas extractors, about 20 cargo bays, and make sure to NOT put a commerce module on it. By leaving the commerce module off, the base acts just like any other gas mine, but civilian ships will not pick up an cargo from it. So you have a large base with lots of fuel on hand and it won't be loaded up and hauled away by the civilian economy.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Retreat1970)

Post #: 8

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/19/2020 8:17:31 PM

Zhuikin

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Joined: 5/15/2020
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Thank you!
This is the useful reply, i was hoping for!

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 9

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/19/2020 10:16:47 PM

SirHoraceHarkness

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Joined: 5/17/2015
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Well you could have always just designed a super mine station with lots of shields and guns. The ai will ignore it on refits but will transfer cargo from it the same as a standard mine and you can build them were you want.

(in reply to Zhuikin)

Post #: 10

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/19/2020 10:38:59 PM

Siddham

Posts: 159
Joined: 3/18/2012
Status: offline

I understood the problem to be how to manage the fuel issue for a system fleet in a system without a fuel source.
If there isn't a mine (fuel source) in the system I dont see how a Star Base can help?
I believe that setting the home base of the fleet to the planet in the system will cause the AI to stock it with fuel.
But of course it may take some time to build up.

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)

Post #: 11

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 2:52:07 AM

Aeson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Siddham

If there isn't a mine (fuel source) in the system I dont see how a Star Base can help?

Energy-to-Fuel Converter - not that that's really a viable way to produce fuel early on, seeing as it's buried at the end of the Energy Collection line.

quote:

I believe that setting the home base of the fleet to the planet in the system will cause the AI to stock it with fuel.
But of course it may take some time to build up.

I'm pretty sure that all colonies that lack spaceports have the same target fuel stockpile regardless of fleet presence; what you might be recalling is more fuel-carrying freighters going to a colony hosting a fleet because a colony hosting a fleet will deplete is fuel stockpiles faster and thus trigger whatever mechanism gets used to tell the freighters to move resources around more often.

(in reply to Siddham)

Post #: 12

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 3:08:24 AM

SirHoraceHarkness

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Joined: 5/17/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Siddham

I understood the problem to be how to manage the fuel issue for a system fleet in a system without a fuel source.
If there isn't a mine (fuel source) in the system I dont see how a Star Base can help?
I believe that setting the home base of the fleet to the planet in the system will cause the AI to stock it with fuel.
But of course it may take some time to build up.

His core issue is protecting a mine over a resource which can be done in other ways that I have laid out and won't take any special workarounds or an automated fleet. You can custom design mines and defense bases to be as powerful as a starbase or capital ship or even more powerful. I will often design fortress mines for distant fuel sources that have much much higher storage capacity than a standard mine along with starbase level shields and weapons.

< Message edited by SirHoraceHarkness -- 5/20/2020 3:11:27 AM >

(in reply to Siddham)

Post #: 13

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 5:35:07 AM

LordMM

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Couple of ways to defend a mine. One way is someone mentioned above is to convert that said mine into a super fortress. However, That isn't your question. The Bacon mod allows you to manually set up supply routes from a source to a destination. In this case, your spaceport. Which you should be able to then use as a refueling Hub.

The other method as someone again mentioned is to use Energy collectors on your local Defence units, which should considerably increase the time in which they can defend the station.

The third is to always have a couple of reserve fleets fully stocked and ready to redeploy based on a fuel depot. Every time my forward defense fleets have to retreat and refuel. I have a reserve fleet ready to redeploy there. Then that fleet moves back in refuels, repairs. Then awaits until another of the front line fleets have to travel back and refuel. So, If I have 5 fleets. Three are deployed in the front while two of them are kept in reserve. IF the fleet size is too big. I divide the fleet and redeploy as necessary.

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)

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RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 1:47:40 PM

Siddham

Posts: 159
Joined: 3/18/2012
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@ Aeson
Thanks for the clarification re the Energy-to-Fuel Converter...a late game solution.

What I wrote about fuel and a fleet Home Base is in the manual; in the Fleet Postures section...

"Set Home Base: Setting the Home Base of a fleet tells it where to return when it completes missions. It also prioritizes that location as a fuel depot and fuel will be stockpiled there as long as at least one fleet has a home base set there."

I find it works for me; but it takes a little while for deliveries to be made and I guess other ships will also use the fuel.
So I use the solution I gave above for system defense fleets; it is simple and allows me to set & forget a defense fleet.

(in reply to LordMM)

Post #: 15

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 1:57:01 PM

Siddham

Posts: 159
Joined: 3/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Siddham

I understood the problem to be how to manage the fuel issue for a system fleet in a system without a fuel source.
If there isn't a mine (fuel source) in the system I dont see how a Star Base can help?
I believe that setting the home base of the fleet to the planet in the system will cause the AI to stock it with fuel.
But of course it may take some time to build up.

His core issue is protecting a mine over a resource which can be done in other ways that I have laid out and won't take any special workarounds or an automated fleet. You can custom design mines and defense bases to be as powerful as a starbase or capital ship or even more powerful. I will often design fortress mines for distant fuel sources that have much much higher storage capacity than a standard mine along with starbase level shields and weapons.

Yes I also fortify mines etc as my empire develops; but I see no issue with a simple method to set & forget a defense fleet in any system irrespective of whether it has a fuel source or not.

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)

Post #: 16

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 3:33:06 PM

Zhuikin

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Joined: 5/15/2020
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Well, yes, the original question was about a system with no fuel source. But since the answer to that was basically "tough luck", i'll have to settle for the second best, and try making depots nearby.

And no, the issue is not protecting the mine.
It's usually about backwater colonies and stuff like that. Places of no particular strategic importance, that can still be struck by pirates (and usually are, magically the very second, when the assigned fleet leaves for fuel... such coincidence);
Places, where i am not active at the moment, and therefore can not go for the more micro-managy solutions.

And the advantage of assigning fleets to these positions, instead of (or rather in addition to) stationary defenses, is, that i end up having mobile fleets on station across my empire, often close enough to regroup and help, if something really serious goes down.
Call it strategic reserve.

The "valuable" bit of Sharks7 answer was the part about leaving out the commerce center, to make the base exempt from the normal private economy - this, while might seem obvious to some, is something i hadn't thought about myself.

< Message edited by Zhuikin -- 5/20/2020 3:53:03 PM >

(in reply to Siddham)

Post #: 17

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 6:46:47 PM

Bleek

Posts: 720
Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

Well, imo, not putting panels on ships to cram one extra gun or engine is silly (unless you're RP). Military fleets spend 90% of the time just sitting around.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and I won't be doing that again!

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 18

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 6:47:18 PM

LordMM

Posts: 574
Joined: 5/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhuikin

Well, yes, the original question was about a system with no fuel source. But since the answer to that was basically "tough luck", i'll have to settle for the second best, and try making depots nearby.

And no, the issue is not protecting the mine.
It's usually about backwater colonies and stuff like that. Places of no particular strategic importance, that can still be struck by pirates (and usually are, magically the very second, when the assigned fleet leaves for fuel... such coincidence);
Places, where i am not active at the moment, and therefore can not go for the more micro-managy solutions.

And the advantage of assigning fleets to these positions, instead of (or rather in addition to) stationary defenses, is, that i end up having mobile fleets on station across my empire, often close enough to regroup and help, if something really serious goes down.
Call it strategic reserve.

The "valuable" bit of Sharks7 answer was the part about leaving out the commerce center, to make the base exempt from the normal private economy - this, while might seem obvious to some, is something i hadn't thought about myself.

As I mentioned earlier. Having reserve fleets ready to redeploy is necessary. As one fleet goes back to refuel and Repair, the Reserve fleet redeploys to the front.

I have my fleets divided into Main fleet and Anti Piracy Fleets or Patrol fleets of 5 -7 Ships each. They are faster to repair, consume less fuel as compared to larger fleets and can move around a lot faster. When you take into consideration the time required for a fleet of 25-30 ships to repair and refuel.

If you get into a shooting match with another empire. You can send these same smaller fleets to target their refueling hubs...

In short, move in with your reserve fleet into the contested zone. The send your other fleet for refueling repair, upgrade etc....

(in reply to Zhuikin)

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RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/20/2020 10:51:55 PM

SirHoraceHarkness

Posts: 400
Joined: 5/17/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhuikin

Well, yes, the original question was about a system with no fuel source. But since the answer to that was basically "tough luck", i'll have to settle for the second best, and try making depots nearby.

And no, the issue is not protecting the mine.
It's usually about backwater colonies and stuff like that. Places of no particular strategic importance, that can still be struck by pirates (and usually are, magically the very second, when the assigned fleet leaves for fuel... such coincidence);
Places, where i am not active at the moment, and therefore can not go for the more micro-managy solutions.

And the advantage of assigning fleets to these positions, instead of (or rather in addition to) stationary defenses, is, that i end up having mobile fleets on station across my empire, often close enough to regroup and help, if something really serious goes down.
Call it strategic reserve.

The "valuable" bit of Sharks7 answer was the part about leaving out the commerce center, to make the base exempt from the normal private economy - this, while might seem obvious to some, is something i hadn't thought about myself.

If you want to keep the fleet around as a reserve then build a single defensive base next to the mine and it will act like a refueling station and your private sector will always keep it filled with fuel for any ships needing it.

(in reply to Zhuikin)

Post #: 20

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 5/22/2020 5:30:11 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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My main reason for doing the star base depots the way I do is that the AI economy tends to suck up all the fuel from mining stations, and I can't refuel a military fleet in the middle of a war. When I build these depots, I put them in gas clouds, etc and just let them sit there. Since they have tons of fuel available, the military fleets tend to head straight for them when they need to refuel, and I'm not stuck waiting on the fuel to be produced.

As a general rule I design them with:

20 cargo bays
2 gas miners
12 docking bays

then I stuff the design with as much defense and weapons as I can (basically as big as it can be and still be built by construction ships).

Not only can these store a ton of fuel and get my ships fueled in hurry, they can hold their own until the cavalry arrives if they get attacked.

It is a trade off though. These are big expensive stations that will hit you in the maintenance hard, but the positive side is I don't have a fleet knocked out of action by a lack of fuel.

You can also use a design with energy to fuel converter and more fuel tanks, but I'm not sure it is as efficient. But that design would work in a system without a source of fuel on the planets.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)

Post #: 21

RE: How to create/manage a fuel depot? - 11/16/2020 9:06:12 PM

BlindOne

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If there is an asset you want protected with a fleet 24/7 ... then just consider replacing the fleet with an actual fortress instead. This will save you the headache you are worried about.

So for the 3 super luxuries I always build Fortress Mines on top of them to ensure they are protected. We're talking thicc boys here that can easily handle an enemy fleet all by itself.

For those crucial fuel depots at the edge of another empire that act as springboards I will build a fortified station that can fend off pirate raids and small strike teams but in general I strongly believe you are much better off trying to keep your empire as lean and mean as possible.

Building defensive and offensive systems on stations that will never see action and/or are not crucial will only increase your maintenance cost and economic burdens more than is necessary.

It is better to have an extra mobile fleet than have all your stations be armed with shields, armor and weapons in case of an attack. Most of the time your stations will get overwhelmed by the enemy regardless of how well it is armed and you can't pool all the stations together like you would with a fleet to actually provide a strong enough force to fight off your enemy. It is better to take your loss in stations on the compromised border and call up your fleets to handle the mess than it is to have them all armored up with systems that will get overwhelmed by any proper attack anyway.

Mobile Assets will benefit you much more than trying to fortify your way into safety.

As for fuel depots in general ... if it has fuel (preferably hydrogen/caslon combo), I build a gas mine on it ... period. Gas mines everywhere! You get a gas mine, and you get a gas mine! and you!!! Gas mines for every planet that has hydrogen/caslon! wooh!

Also make sure to split your fuel economy in 2 by doing the private sector hydrogen, military sector caslon once you are capable of it mid-tech tree. The annoying part is that the end of the tech tree it is better to use hydrogen for military ships as this relationship switches around annoyingly enough at the end. So you start with caslon for everything. Then get hydrogen reactors as a secondary option which has less energy output (hence better for civilian) and caslon quantum engines which are great for military vessels. But then at the end of the tech tree it switches this around again and hydrogen provides the best energy ... so you will want to switch those around again at some point.

Regardless the best cure for a lack of fuel is to build a metric tonne gas stations.

Now if by some reason you absolutely MUST get fuel to a specific location that has no fuel of its own. Build a star base with a lot of storage capacity (20 units or so) there. The civilian freighters WILL ensure that star base will get fed with enough fuel (if available of course) to fuel any fleets docking there to get their gas tanks filled up. Be wary though ... if your empire is suffering from a lack of fuel as it is ... building a star base that requires a constant supply of fuel could deplete your own fuel reserves from wherever you are drawing them from (usually the home world) ... It's a good reason why you may sometimes want to actually scrap those abandoned star bases you find out in space, especially really early game if you're suffering a lack of fuel supply.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 22