Proposal of change to mines

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Proposal of change to mines - 5/21/2020 9:11:04 AM

hottegetthoff

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Right now, mines after being spotted become useless and become a problem for their owner, as without either suiciding your ship at them/getting new naval warfare level, you cant place new ones. I think about this solution:
After being spotted, mines still can damage any enemy naval unit if its in an adjacent hex, but this time with 33% chance, not 100% as with unspotted. This would require to go around them even more, or use your unit to take damage so that the assault can continue, for example in adriatic.

To balance this, mines should disappear after 2/3 turns at the end of the turn of player who placed them. This would give a window of opportunity for enemy to exploit, and incentive to go regularly out in the sea, and would provide interesting engagements.

What do you think?

Post #: 1

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 5/21/2020 11:42:00 AM

FOARP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hottegetthoff

Right now, mines after being spotted become useless and become a problem for their owner, as without either suiciding your ship at them/getting new naval warfare level, you cant place new ones. I think about this solution:
After being spotted, mines still can damage any enemy naval unit if its in an adjacent hex, but this time with 33% chance, not 100% as with unspotted. This would require to go around them even more, or use your unit to take damage so that the assault can continue, for example in adriatic.

To balance this, mines should disappear after 2/3 turns at the end of the turn of player who placed them. This would give a window of opportunity for enemy to exploit, and incentive to go regularly out in the sea, and would provide interesting engagements.

What do you think?

Down-side to this is that it would require continuous placement of mines, and also risk making them OP.

I haven't checked but it is it really not possible to simply disband the mines?

(in reply to hottegetthoff)

Post #: 2

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 5/21/2020 1:16:44 PM

hottegetthoff

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I know that it risks making them OP, the downside of having to continuously place them is supposed to counterbalance this. I dont know if you can disband mines.

(in reply to FOARP)

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/1/2021 6:43:08 PM

Pocus

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Bringing back this thread. I have a single mine capability as Austria and it is now laid in the Adriatic. I'm condemned to keep this minefield forever in this spot?

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/1/2021 7:48:32 PM

Platoonist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Bringing back this thread. I have a single mine capability as Austria and it is now laid in the Adriatic. I'm condemned to keep this minefield forever in this spot?

Yes, I'm afraid so. Unless you "suicide" one of your own ships into it to remove it. There have been calls for a minesweeper class unit to be added to the game so you can extract a minefield that has become useless or a hindrance for your side.

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/2/2021 3:29:03 AM

Tanaka

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Agreed minefields should not last forever...

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/2/2021 4:12:09 AM

Chernobyl

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If you look in the editor the mines have a much higher chance of being damaged by weather. But I don't think weather actually applies to mines. It looks like the original idea was for mines to only last so long before dying off to rng. But as it is now they do seem to last forever.

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Post #: 7

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/2/2021 4:53:52 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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I've been using mines more dynamically now..and started to use them in extended sea combat situations instead of just as blockers.

They are also useful for helping bring down a port in a blockade, for instance planting one off Cetije and placing a submarine next to the port to bring it down over time.

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 1/2/2021 4:54:17 AM >

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/2/2021 1:42:34 PM

Pocus

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Perhaps they should go away (5-10% chance per turn) if you have no ship within 3 hexes. Meaning if you want to keep them forever, have a ship not too far, otherwise wait for the RNG to do its trick. Right now having mines permanent seems a bit of a stretch. And I understand the want of no micro-managing, but certainly a solution can be found.

< Message edited by Pocus -- 1/2/2021 1:43:06 PM >

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/3/2021 3:55:16 PM

BillRunacre

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If you're not already aware, researching Naval Warfare will increase the number of mines that can be laid by 2 per level.

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/3/2021 4:47:58 PM

Pocus

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Yes, that's nice to know. It does not solve the issue though

I need to try moving a cheap unit (MTB probably) through my minefield to see if I can remove it by losing some steps. Is that work, then that's a solution I can live off, even if surreal somehow!

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Post #: 11

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/3/2021 5:38:52 PM

Chernobyl

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Has anyone done anything to improve mines by modding the game? I haven't thought of any good ways to improve mines in my personal fun mod besides reducing Spying+Intel tech. Would love to copy anyone's idea if there's a good one!

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 1/3/2021 6:28:20 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/4/2021 3:28:37 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Yes, that's nice to know. It does not solve the issue though

I need to try moving a cheap unit (MTB probably) through my minefield to see if I can remove it by losing some steps. Is that work, then that's a solution I can live off, even if surreal somehow!

That is one way around it if you want to remove a mine.

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/4/2021 3:49:22 PM

stockwellpete

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Paravanes were used during WW1 to clear mines . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paravane_%28weapon%29#:~:text=The%20paravane%20%2F%20%CB%88p%C3%A6r%C9%99ve%C9%AAn%20%2F%2C%20a%20form%20of,It%20was%20used%20against%20naval%20mines%20and%20submarines.

If you scroll down this link to this light cruisers' itinerary (log) you will see various mentions to paravanes during the course of 1918 . . .

https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-06-HMS_Ceres.htm

Maybe this could be added in some way to the game? Not sure how widely they were used, or by whom. Or when they were first used and where either.

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Post #: 14

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/9/2021 9:45:41 AM

stockwellpete

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The other thing that I have come across is that some mines were attached to nets and this combination did sink a number of subs in WW1. I haven't looked into this yet, but presumably these nets were used in coastal waters, were they? Were they actually fixed in place by buoys, or perhaps attached to something on shore? And maybe the other mines were placed individually further out from the coast? Anyone know any details?

From a gaming point of view, I would think the mines/nets would stay in place for longer than the individual mines placed further out to sea. I guess those at sea would disperse fairly quickly due to currents and storms. So maybe mines in coastal waters would stay as they are now in the game, but mines at sea could disappear after a set number of turns. Perhaps "storms at sea" could immediately destroy them as well?

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/10/2021 10:24:27 AM

stockwellpete

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Mine_Barrage

So prior to this idea the deepest mines were down at 300 feet and submarines were thought to be able to go down to 600 feet. This North Sea Barrage would reach 600 feet down although the water was as deep as 900 feet in some places between Orkney and Norway. The new "antennae" mine would work at 600 feet down and its detonating mechanism had a battery life of 2+ years and the mines would be connected to the seabed by steel wire.

Apparently there was another barrage in the English channel and one at Otranto in the Adriatic, which was composed of drift mines . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otranto_Barrage

< Message edited by stockwellpete -- 1/10/2021 11:17:17 AM >

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/10/2021 5:47:04 PM

hottegetthoff

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yes, after some time i think they should be used to cover your ships after attack, not as blockade. This is the most "meta" use. For example, If you sink some british ships, if move your more valuable ships back , with destroyers place a quick minefield to cover a counterattack.

I think there should be simply a disband option for them, probably the easiest to implement. Otherwise you can use them in areas where enemy cant use air (excluding seaplane tenders).

Mines, currently are useless in adriatic. Essentially, submarines are better at the role of mines. Its another topic as the use of submarine in the fleet submarine role is easily the best choice, not raiding. Subs and mines, their interaction with other naval units and sometimes air could use some changes imo.

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 17

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/10/2021 10:12:43 PM

Chernobyl

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Yes my main problem with battle subs is that they are way too good at spotting. And this includes mines. Subs have only a low chance of detonating a mine (use silent mode) and they spot them easily, rendering the mines worthless. This is completely ahistorical and counterintuitive. Mines are supposed to be a threat to subs, not the other way around.

I want to fix this by giving subs zero vision of hexes other than their own hex, but unfortunately a vision range of 1 is hardcoded into the game (you can set the vision range to 0 but it still sees one hex away)

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 1/10/2021 10:15:13 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/11/2021 12:07:27 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hottegetthoff

yes, after some time i think they should be used to cover your ships after attack, not as blockade. This is the most "meta" use. For example, If you sink some british ships, if move your more valuable ships back , with destroyers place a quick minefield to cover a counterattack.

I think there should be simply a disband option for them, probably the easiest to implement. Otherwise you can use them in areas where enemy cant use air (excluding seaplane tenders).

Mines, currently are useless in adriatic. Essentially, submarines are better at the role of mines. Its another topic as the use of submarine in the fleet submarine role is easily the best choice, not raiding. Subs and mines, their interaction with other naval units and sometimes air could use some changes imo.

On the whole, yes, mines are useless in the Adriatic....except if placed next to Cetije in conjunction with a CP submarine. The mine counts as one of the two 'ships' required to reduce the port one point at a time. This tactic will force the Entente to continually ram these mines and/or engage and push off the sub. Its a tedious affair and usually proves to be an annoyance, but it can shut the port down if the Entente is busy with other work out on the high seas.

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RE: Proposal of change to mines - 1/11/2021 7:33:32 AM

hottegetthoff

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Subs are a separate topic probably. They are one of the best units for naval recon, probably the best for ambushes and also to cover your fleet from attack.

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 20