RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!)

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 4:22:04 PM

Vic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: W8taminute

I don't want a pull system for my logistics otherwise I'll just play other boring games that have this system. The original out of the box logistics system in Shadow Empires is an enigma but once you get used to how it works it is so refreshing compared to other games.

I really hope that there is an option to keep this original logistics system in the game. I don't want a pull system. Don't spoil my fun for this game please. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Just turn it off for your Empire.

I still have no idea why you find "making a maze of traffic sign" a engaging mechanic, but do not expect a lot of people willing to play without it.

Indeed :)

I repeat: You can still play the game exactly as you did before.

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(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 301

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 4:34:11 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: W8taminute

I don't want a pull system for my logistics otherwise I'll just play other boring games that have this system. The original out of the box logistics system in Shadow Empires is an enigma but once you get used to how it works it is so refreshing compared to other games.

I really hope that there is an option to keep this original logistics system in the game. I don't want a pull system. Don't spoil my fun for this game please. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Just turn it off for your Empire.

I still have no idea why you find "making a maze of traffic sign" a engaging mechanic, but do not expect a lot of people willing to play without it.

It is called preference. Some of us find the "maze" system engaging and compelling, something else to crack in the game, a logistics model that is virtually unique in wargames. I know I for one am somewhat OCD, and the system naturally appeals to that part of me. There is no accounting for preference. And it appears Vic is listening to both sides, has recognized the division, and has built another system with options to accommodate both sides in the logistics divide. I'm glad he has gone that way. Frankly, if he had scrapped the current system and gone with what is apparently a simpler system, I would still play the game because it is just so good, though I would miss the current sytem. And I will try the new system when it comes out of beta. In other games with complex systems that can be fully or partially automated, I sometimes play fully manual (Distant Worlds Universe) and sometimes automate some systems. The air war in WITW is one I can think of, where I automate and then make some manual adjustments. But it comes back to preference.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 302

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 8:26:59 PM

DasTactic

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I was just live-streaming Shadow Empire 1.04 beta 4 and jotted down a few things:

* When you go to the Leaders screen it starts with Natural Relation Point turned on. Resetting turns it off. I assume this should start off.

* I tried the new Traffic Signs with the toggles at the top and turned off the Pull blockage indicator and applied road and rail to an offshoot that had an asset with 100 Pull on it. The Logistics was completely blocked and the Pull didn't bypass the road block.

* When applying Unit Stratagems to units in the Target list it would be really cool to be able to see any Feats already active on each unit.

* I had a message after an event that said 'Unrest increased by (inv) 10%'. Not sure what that means. In the unrest it showed an increase of 9% unrest and another 15% popunrest whatever that is as well.

* Some of the viewers made a suggestion to allow the option to have enemies that surrender to be added to your empire as POWs. The suggestion was to increase pop but also increase unrest. Thought it was a cool idea.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 303

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 8:49:05 PM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DasTactic

* Some of the viewers made a suggestion to allow the option to have enemies that surrender to be added to your empire as POWs. The suggestion was to increase pop but also increase unrest. Thought it was a cool idea.

... then we need the option to execute prisoners as well.

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Post #: 304

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 9:07:57 PM

Smidlee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DasTactic

* I tried the new Traffic Signs with the toggles at the top and turned off the Pull blockage indicator and applied road and rail to an offshoot that had an asset with 100 Pull on it. The Logistics was completely blocked and the Pull didn't bypass the road block.

I learned you still have to at least allow 95% instead total block. Total block work different from the block percentages.

< Message edited by Smidlee -- 7/6/2020 9:09:34 PM >

(in reply to DasTactic)

Post #: 305

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 9:45:48 PM

Destragon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smidlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DasTactic

* I tried the new Traffic Signs with the toggles at the top and turned off the Pull blockage indicator and applied road and rail to an offshoot that had an asset with 100 Pull on it. The Logistics was completely blocked and the Pull didn't bypass the road block.

I learned you still have to at least allow 95% instead total block. Total block work different from the block percentages.

Nope, that's not it. If you set up a "block all" traffic sign and have it not apply to truck points, it will let the truck points through.
There is definitely something bugged with traffic signs and pull points here.

I just did some testing and it looks like pull points can ONLY get through a 100% block traffic sign if the traffic sign is also told not to block railroad points.

If you set it up to block truck and railroad points, but let pull points through, it will not let anything through.
If you set it up to not block truck points and also not block pull points, but block railroad points, it will not let the pull points through.

Here is an example picture:

< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/6/2020 9:52:29 PM >

(in reply to Smidlee)

Post #: 306

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 11:10:06 PM

Destragon

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Hey Vic, I have no idea if this is working as intended or not, but if you have a junction with a traffic sign that blocks pull points, but doesn't block truck points, the branching count for the pull point logistics still increases.

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 307

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/7/2020 8:26:33 AM

ramnblam

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Edit: So tell me if I'm getting this right, I should be able to block a road 100% and if I uncheck the pull points box, points that units and assets are required should be getting through right?

Because this is not happening at the moment. Or am I completely misunderstanding the system?

< Message edited by ramnblam -- 7/7/2020 9:11:39 AM >

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 308

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/7/2020 9:06:04 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

Hey Vic, I have no idea if this is working as intended or not, but if you have a junction with a traffic sign that blocks pull points, but doesn't block truck points, the branching count for the pull point logistics still increases.

You still have points going South-east (thanks to pull points overriding the block).
So it is technically still a fully working 3 crossing of 1 branch plus "very little, but still more then 0"?

I am not sure of course.

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 309

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 8:04:00 AM

Vic

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Some fixes coming up in next beta that should address an issue related to Zgrssd report.

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Post #: 310

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta5 (last update 8th july!) - 7/8/2020 11:19:37 AM

Vic

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Posted beta-5. Some fixes and a start to adding more answers to the WHY I AM NOT GETTING SUPPLIES HERE question.

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Post #: 311

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 11:22:12 AM

Vic

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Joined: 5/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

Edit: So tell me if I'm getting this right, I should be able to block a road 100% and if I uncheck the pull points box, points that units and assets are required should be getting through right?

Because this is not happening at the moment. Or am I completely misunderstanding the system?

This should work with v104-beta5. I made a fix that could have caused this to not work the previous version.

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Post #: 312

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 2:41:57 PM

Destragon

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In beta 5, "block all" traffic signs that are told not to block pull points still block pull points as far as I can see. Same as beta 4.

Edit:
Noticed a small typo in one of the pick-up issue texts. It says "... was to far for the unit's operational logistics range". Missing the second "o" in "too".
Thanks for these additions, by the way.

< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/8/2020 2:53:06 PM >

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 313

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 4:57:56 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
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I don't do betas, but just wanted to say I appreciate the work of everyone trying the betas and reporting and helping improve the game.

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 314

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 8:05:20 PM

Destragon

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I just sent an email with a save with a couple potential bugs.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 315

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 8:54:21 PM

zgrssd

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I think there is one major improovement still missing to the pull System:
A way to distribute the non-pulled points properly.
If you produce 4000 Logistics and get 1000 pull requests, there is 3000 points you do not know where to send. So the System defaults for the old spread.
Right now I still got to block of asset roads manually and hope the override works.

I think a big part is detecting Dead End roads. I have thought about detection them a little bit. I would say a reliable definition of "dead end" is "a road that does not hit a city or Logistics creating asset".
While most of the Logistics providers are in or on the road to cities, the odd free-standing one might still apear.

Alternatively, you could just split the non-pulled points based on the weightings each direction is getting. With above 1000 pull requests, asuming you get requests like:
400
400
100
100

It would be a simple mater of weighting math, to distribute those 3000 points equally over those 4 directions.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/8/2020 8:56:39 PM >

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 316

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 10:14:57 PM

Destragon

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Don't forget you can place custom pull point requests, too.
I think having the leftover points automatically just evenly spread out in the old way is the way to go, because there isn't really a way for the game to know where exactly the player would want their strat move and formation raising points. Unlike with the points required to supply assets and units, I don't think this can really get automated in a way to satisfy everyone.

< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/8/2020 10:17:04 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 317

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 10:33:44 PM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

Don't forget you can place custom pull point requests, too.
I think having the leftover points automatically just evenly spread out in the old way is the way to go, because there isn't really a way for the game to know where exactly the player would want their strat move and formation raising points. Unlike with the points required to supply assets and units, I don't think this can really get automated in a way to satisfy everyone.

Agreed.

There is a way to prioritize--specifying supply routes (main, etc.) with player selected start point (sp) and release point (rp). Player specifies the number of "pull" points they want (but may not get) in each hex from SP to RP.

Then leave everything else to evenly spread.

I'm surprised no one asked for priority to units, or to assets, or to cities yet. A prioritized list like (1) cities, (2) assets, (3) units.

My experience, however, is limited. I've only tested pull, not really used pull so far.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/8/2020 10:35:25 PM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 318

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/8/2020 11:28:34 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

Don't forget you can place custom pull point requests, too.
I think having the leftover points automatically just evenly spread out in the old way is the way to go, because there isn't really a way for the game to know where exactly the player would want their strat move and formation raising points. Unlike with the points required to supply assets and units, I don't think this can really get automated in a way to satisfy everyone.

I do not want to mirco those things. Indeed, I would prefer it if I did not even have to block asset-only roads.

As for where the player wants excess logistics for Strategic movement:
On the main roads, of course. The ones that lead to a city. Or logistcs assets in the wild.
If he wants them on some dirt road leading to his mine? Then he cap put down some pull points

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 319

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/9/2020 1:54:17 AM

Malevolence

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This looks like one of the improved tooltips. In any event, I just noticed it. It's an example of a good tooltip.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/9/2020 1:56:52 AM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 320

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/9/2020 2:59:40 AM

ramnblam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

Edit: So tell me if I'm getting this right, I should be able to block a road 100% and if I uncheck the pull points box, points that units and assets are required should be getting through right?

Because this is not happening at the moment. Or am I completely misunderstanding the system?

This should work with v104-beta5. I made a fix that could have caused this to not work the previous version.

As per Destragon's post, this function is still not working for me on a fresh beta 5 game.

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 321

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/9/2020 3:23:26 AM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

Edit: So tell me if I'm getting this right, I should be able to block a road 100% and if I uncheck the pull points box, points that units and assets are required should be getting through right?

Because this is not happening at the moment. Or am I completely misunderstanding the system?

This should work with v104-beta5. I made a fix that could have caused this to not work the previous version.

As per Destragon's post, this function is still not working for me on a fresh beta 5 game.

I also sent a savegame and bug report via another channel regarding same [1.04b5].

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/9/2020 3:24:23 AM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 322

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/9/2020 3:41:57 AM

Destragon

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Here's another weird interaction between pull points and branching penalty.
In this situation, there's a junction, but no logistics points actually travel south, because they all get pulled to the east. But even though no logistics head south, the branching count is increased by 1 anyway.

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 323

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta5 (last update 8th july!) - 7/9/2020 2:28:05 PM

demiare

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
-Public Production Penalty % below 50% now gets a roll where the effect is upped to 50% penalty for an Asset if you roll 1d50 below or equal to the Production %, if you roll above 0% penalty is applied.

It's insanely huge buff to Production Penalty. Previously cost of having Mystic Temple cult was almost negligible as long as you take in mind that each building will be delayed by 1 turn.

Now with a previously trivial 1-9 Production Penalty could happily trigger -50% penalty for a Rail Station level IV in your capital, efficiently crippling your whole logistic system for a next turn. Get it for a two-three turns in a row if you're REALLY unlucky (and I'm having constantly repeating public product > crisis of egoism ages in my latest game) and it can cost you whole game in a tough starting situation.

Are this was intended to make those guys such monsters from your regime's viewpoint?

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 324

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta5 (last update 8th july!) - 7/9/2020 3:51:43 PM

GodwinW

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To be honest I do not get the reason either. It does seem very harsh.

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Post #: 325

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/9/2020 3:56:46 PM

NoodlePickle

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Thanks for the updates and adjustments. This game is amazing!

(in reply to aperfecturkel)

Post #: 326

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta5 (last update 8th july!) - 7/9/2020 7:53:01 PM

Pi2repsilon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

To be honest I do not get the reason either. It does seem very harsh.

IIRC it arose from the construction time issue of "that it takes a full extra turn to construct whenever public production penalty >0% is rather silly", and doing it this way ensures that when the penalty is less than 50% you have a scaling chance to just use the normal number of turns rather than one extra, which seems a decent solution to that problem.

Applying it to every asset's daily operations, on the other hand, seems nuts. A 50% penalty at random on critical infrastructure like logistics or power is a really, really bad idea.

So I assume it is just an unintended side effect of implementation and that when we raise this issue construction and daily operations will be treated differently. That's what we've got betas for - trying new things and spotting problems with them before official releases are made.

:)

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 327

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta5 (last update 8th july!) - 7/10/2020 7:34:24 AM

Vic

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Joined: 5/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pi2repsilon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

To be honest I do not get the reason either. It does seem very harsh.

IIRC it arose from the construction time issue of "that it takes a full extra turn to construct whenever public production penalty >0% is rather silly", and doing it this way ensures that when the penalty is less than 50% you have a scaling chance to just use the normal number of turns rather than one extra, which seems a decent solution to that problem.

Applying it to every asset's daily operations, on the other hand, seems nuts. A 50% penalty at random on critical infrastructure like logistics or power is a really, really bad idea.

So I assume it is just an unintended side effect of implementation and that when we raise this issue construction and daily operations will be treated differently. That's what we've got betas for - trying new things and spotting problems with them before official releases are made.

:)

Well nuts is a big word, but i agree. Limiting this to construction only for beta6.

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Post #: 328

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta5 (last update 8th july!) - 7/10/2020 8:50:54 AM

ramnblam

Posts: 199
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From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pi2repsilon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

To be honest I do not get the reason either. It does seem very harsh.

IIRC it arose from the construction time issue of "that it takes a full extra turn to construct whenever public production penalty >0% is rather silly", and doing it this way ensures that when the penalty is less than 50% you have a scaling chance to just use the normal number of turns rather than one extra, which seems a decent solution to that problem.

Applying it to every asset's daily operations, on the other hand, seems nuts. A 50% penalty at random on critical infrastructure like logistics or power is a really, really bad idea.

So I assume it is just an unintended side effect of implementation and that when we raise this issue construction and daily operations will be treated differently. That's what we've got betas for - trying new things and spotting problems with them before official releases are made.

:)

Well nuts is a big word, but i agree. Limiting this to construction only for beta6.

haha

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 329

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta5 (last update 8th july!) - 7/10/2020 1:41:08 PM

Vic

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Posted beta-6

Big extra added for Planet generation!

best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 330

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