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Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ unit was not involved in it

 
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Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ unit w... - 6/7/2020 9:22:08 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		So, I had an enemy unit surrounded by 5 battalions from an infantry brigade and a militia unit, and I had made sure that the OHQ was sitting behind the lines 2 hexes away from the action.

During the fight, the combat screen took a nice red tint and a 1 message notification appeared. When I moused over it, I learned the commander of the unit had died in combat.

Is it normal? Does a commander leave the OHQ to involve himself in the fight at the front lines somehow?

I admit I'm a little salty since the commander was one of the only few decent leaders of my regime, and I was keeping the HQ out of the action precisely to avoid this sort of outcome. (Add to this the fact that I had just noticed - all in good spirit I promise - it was rather naughty to have made it so that formations are 1 HQ and 5 units so that if you want to surround an enemy completely and do not have another unit handy you'd have to commit your HQ to the front line and risk your leader dying...)

But I must say I'm a little baffled at this outcome. I will revert to the previous save because it seems unfair to me, but I'm willing to provide saves if it's a bug needing further investigation.

But I still think this game is very fine. :p

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/7/2020 9:23:34 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 9:27:42 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		I've seen the SHQ commander killed in combat as well. The SHQ was in the capital city while the engagement was many hexes away.


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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 9:34:21 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		That's somewhat disturbing, but maybe I'm a sore loser. This needs either fixing or a fair warning somewhere these kinds of things can happen, in my opinion.

(in reply to Malevolence)
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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 9:38:32 PM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline 		Yes I agree if the commander HQ unit is 200 km further he shouldn't die except if HQ is at range of a rocket or ICBM unit.

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 10:30:01 PM   
Tester28

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 11/14/2017
Status: offline 		Do we know if the game is assuming that your commander is ALWAYS with their HQ unit, or if they occasionally go to be with the other units when combat starts? Once again, this game does not provide nearly enough feedback. I would certainly assume the commander is with the HQ unit and would be upset if my commander died when they could not have possibly been attacked.

(in reply to Kamelpov)
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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 11:10:37 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		IRL, the HQ and the Commander are actually two different things. For example, it is typical for the Deputy Commander to occupy the CP, while the Commander moves with the main effort subordinate element. It depends a lot on the echelon.

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 11:26:08 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Then this calls for a mention in the battle log of when and how the CO has been killed and what where the odds. Admittedly, I was too off put by the turn of events to look at the log and ensure if it's already the case or not.

I didn't know about that IRL thing and must admit I am a bit surprised about it, but very much willing to take your word on it. It might very much depend on the commander's personality or the doctrine of the army he belongs in.

However, as much as I can admit an OHQ commander could die on the battlefield, I still tend to think it's a far cry the SHQ commander would get this much in the way of danger, except if the city he's in is besieged for example.

As I said elsewhere, if you happen to know of a photograph of Foch jumping out of a trench during an actual assault while German shells fall around, I would be very interested in it.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/7/2020 11:31:09 PM >

(in reply to Malevolence)
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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 11:42:54 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		My input comes with the caveat that it's difficult to remember the setting of this game sometimes.

I tend to think of this as an alternate-history ww2 game set on some world Captain Kirk would find during a five-year mission.

A better analogy would be Road Warrior and Mad Max. Your mileage may vary. Would you find Lord Humungus hanging out at the map board with his coffee?






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/7/2020 11:44:31 PM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 11:51:01 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
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Status: offline 		That's not Foch!

And I'd take Lord Hummus over Lord Humungus anytime.

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Post #: 9
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/7/2020 11:54:01 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
As I said elsewhere, if you happen to know of a photograph of Foch jumping out of a trench during an actual assault while German shells fall around, I would be very interested in it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bolivar_Buckner_Jr.

That's as bad as it gets in WW2 for the United States at least.

For German Generals: (that represents 3 Army commanders, 23 Corps commanders, and 110 Division commanders)




A total of 223 German-Army General officers were killed in action or died of wounds total. Not all were Commanders.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/8/2020 12:04:25 AM >

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Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 10
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/8/2020 12:09:57 AM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Simon Bolivar Buckner Jr. ? (Picture a smiley mouth agape.)
What a name. He and his parents sure where interesting people. Thanks for making me aware of his existence. (I'm shamelessly knee-jerk reacting here but will read more on him just after this message.)
(Wow. Straight from Alaska defense to Okinawa invasion, that's a tall order.
« Visits from the general were not always welcome as his presence frequently drew enemy fire. » - Wikipedia, your mileage may vary. You don't tell.)

As for the German commanders, since there is a lack of dates of death, would it be unfair to compare them to an SHQ commander besieged in his capitol by huge number of opposing troops?
That's a significant number though, but the lack of details on the circumstances of their deaths makes it difficult for me to make sense out of these numbers.

I appreciate your effort to educate me though!

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/8/2020 12:22:46 AM >

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 11
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/8/2020 12:24:13 AM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		Enjoy...

GERMAN GENERAL OFFICER CASUALTIES IN WORLD WAR II
-- HARBINGER FOR U.S. ARMY GENERAL OFFICER CASUALTIES IN AIRLAND BATTLE?
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a211610.pdf


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/8/2020 12:26:08 AM >

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Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 12
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/8/2020 5:19:30 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Its rare, but possible as a Commanders do not always stay behind their desk but might actually visit the troops they are commanding, especially if the have the skill "Lead from the Front".

"Personal Combat" skill can help them survive any accidents.

best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 13
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/8/2020 10:58:20 AM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Fair enough, since it's a rule and there are mechanisms to modify the odds, I can live with it. I suppose otherwise commanders would be quasi immortal.
Thanks for your answer.

Plus I've read the monograph linked by Malevolence and understand better how this is possible.

It struck me hard because that commander was good and it was only two turns after I put him in command of my first brigade of the game, but a general officer getting killed in action in the first month he took command was not at all uncommon in history, as I just learned. I must admit I would have been overjoyed it the accident had rather happened to the SHQ commander whose Capability Level is I, so there are pros and cons.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 14
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/9/2020 2:50:15 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Just had this as well. Felt like a bug. I deliberately kept him back. I had the exact same situation as Jdane, just got a really good Commander, so happy, 3 turns later he died. Despite keeping him safe. To some animals even, no stray bullets involved, nor any intelligent infiltration. My real life morals were crushed (already was an incredibly entrenched start) and I just decided to quit that game over it.

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Post #: 15
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/9/2020 3:59:10 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		There are some Stratagems that give (big) bonus to the Personal Combat rolls.

I am listening and thinking though. Never like to see players quit out of frustration.

Best wishes,
Vic

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/9/2020 4:37:35 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		I was salty when it happened to me, but after reading on commanding officer casualties IRL, and above all noticing it's a rule explicitly stated in the manual, I'm now perfectly fine with it.

Sucks when you lose a good commander on the first couple months of his assignment, great when it gets rid of an incompetent SHQ commander you were stuck with for fear of popularity and political repercussions if you demoted them yourself. Plus there are tools implemented to mitigate the risk. It gives the player more choices, which is good in my opinion.

The first wake up call hurts, but after that it's a matter of playing with the rules, and that's good fun. But I understand people can get upset over it at first and sympathize.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/9/2020 4:38:08 PM >

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 17
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/9/2020 6:48:10 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

There are some Stratagems that give (big) bonus to the Personal Combat rolls.

I am listening and thinking though. Never like to see players quit out of frustration.

Best wishes,
Vic

There are commanders you would more likely find on the frontline then their own HQ. Like Erwin Rommel:
"He was aggressive and often directed battle from the front or piloted a reconnaissance aircraft over the lines to get a view of the situation. When the British mounted a commando raid deep behind German lines in an effort to kill Rommel and his staff on the eve of their Crusader offensive, Rommel was indignant that the British expected to find his headquarters 250 miles behind his front.[462] Mellenthin and Harald Kuhn write that at times in North Africa his absence from a position of communication made command of the battles of the Afrika Korps difficult. Mellenthin lists Rommel's counterattack during Operation Crusader as one such instance.[463][464] Butler concurred, saying that leading from the front is a good concept but Rommel took it so far – he frequently directed the actions of a single company or battalion – that he made communication and coordination between units problematic, as well as risking his life to the extent that he could easily have been killed even by his own artillery."

And then there are commanders you would have a spotty radio connection to, because they were that far away.


While in the pre-firearm age you had to be on the battlefield to direct it (no sufficient communications), there is still variation:
Compare between Hannibal at Cannae or the Greek generals, wich led from the frontline. Charged in with the Cavalry.
To the Roman generals, wich let the Tribunes and Centurions lead on the front.

The skill "Leade from the front" indicates they get more recless the more experienced they get.
But recklessness should be a feat or derived from personality traits. It can be used as a modifier on some of the commander skills. A carefull commander would make "Lead from the Front" skill nearly useless, but also risk a whole lot less to die in combat.

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/9/2020 7:12:31 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		The Heroism stat determines how often the commanding officer can be found close to the front line.
A very Heroic one is almost be guaranteed to be there, and a coward to be sticking to his desk as far away as possible from harm, says the manual.

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/10/2020 6:24:31 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

Yes I agree if the commander HQ unit is 200 km further he shouldn't die except if HQ is at range of a rocket or ICBM unit.


Tell Heydrich that in 1942 or Rommel when he got strafed and put out of action.....


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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/10/2020 6:35:04 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
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quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

Yes I agree if the commander HQ unit is 200 km further he shouldn't die except if HQ is at range of a rocket or ICBM unit.


Tell Heydrich that in 1942 or Rommel when he got strafed and put out of action.....


Both of those had their HQ on the frontline, not 200 km behind it!
And Rommal had been doing that stuff in france as well.
And on the Italian front, back in WW1.

And airforce is really just long range artillery with human level target selection.

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/10/2020 7:08:13 PM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline 		In this game one hex = 200 km I will agree to your statement if i stacked the HQ.

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/10/2020 7:16:51 PM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline 		So 5 hex is 1000 km and is the minimal distance between 2 city center in that game. I bet you didn't read the manual for the distance. But it say commander can visit the frontline if they got high heroism (probably in this world commander don't care about travelling 200 or 1000 km just to motivate troops.)

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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/10/2020 9:57:23 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

So 5 hex is 1000 km and is the minimal distance between 2 city center in that game. I bet you didn't read the manual for the distance. But it say commander can visit the frontline if they got high heroism (probably in this world commander don't care about travelling 200 or 1000 km just to motivate troops.)

Moving a commander and some staff in a scout car is way easier then a format of hundreds of people.

And a turn is like a full season, so plenty of time for him to drive between the HQ and the Troops, so he just happens to be at the frontline (and not get out there ASAP) when the attack comes.

(in reply to Kamelpov)
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RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/11/2020 4:34:36 AM   
Kamelpov

 

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Status: offline 		Well now for hot head commander with 3+ in potential i put a bodyguard card for them

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Post #: 25
RE: Commander of a brigade dies in combat but the HQ un... - 6/11/2020 9:08:41 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

Well now for hot head commander with 3+ in potential i put a bodyguard card for them

Yeah, that skill and the cards that buff it finally started making sense.

It should just be a bit clearer that can happen, so people are not blindsided by it.

(in reply to Kamelpov)
Post #: 26
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