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Great thread all!!! - 8/13/2003 8:32:05 PM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline 		This is a great thread. Everyone interested in diving the Bikini wrecks prepare for decompression dives.
I have one of the Bikini sites bookmarked and they state most of the dives on the wrecks are below the
max rec diver limit of 130. Take a Nitrox or a Trimix course too.
The same website: combinedfleet.com also had a reference to a expedition which was to find the final
resting places of the FUSO and YAMASHIRO sunk at Suragio. I have been unable to get anymore info.
I don't know if they made the expedition or not.

If I recall correctly, I read on a scuba site somewhere that the Musashi wreck has also been visited.
I think it is resting at least 1000 feet down. I can't recall much of that thread.

:D

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 31
- 8/13/2003 10:47:48 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Matt, you may be thinking of the National Geographic expedition to Truk lagoon that occurred around the mid 1970s. If I remember right there was a NGS video (you know, with the "Look at the two apes, this must be where they live!" trumpet theme).

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 32
- 8/14/2003 1:41:51 AM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Atoka, TN
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Erickson
[B]don't forget the prinz eugen hero of the battle with the hood her hull still breathes air! talk about unsinkable! [/B][/QUOTE]

My grandfather was picked to be part of the Prinz Eugen's "prize crew" that was to sail her to Bikini. It was voluntary of course and he was scheduled for discharge in five days. Needless to say, he would have had to re-up for another year, he passed on the assignment! :) Pretty smart move considering the reckless attitude given to the treatment of the highly radioactive ships after the blasts. I've got a really good book that's chock full of pictures on the tests. I believe its Ghosts of Bikini Atoll or something like that. I'll have to edit this when I get home.

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Post #: 33
- 8/14/2003 2:16:16 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Its a shame that we didn't keep one of these "Trophies" for posterity. Would have been nice to explore the Prinz, or better yet the battleship Nagato.

Of course, in this age of political correct-ness.....there would probably have been a movement by now to give them back to their former owners. Fine as long as they dont get scrapped :D

Alas....for most, all we have are photos of these former Queens of the seas. At least in the end both ships escaped the scrappers

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Post #: 34
- 8/14/2003 4:33:37 AM   
Matt Erickson

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: santa barbra, calif
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]Matt, you may be thinking of the National Geographic expedition to Truk lagoon that occurred around the mid 1970s. If I remember right there was a NGS video (you know, with the "Look at the two apes, this must be where they live!" trumpet theme). [/B][/QUOTE]

hi I remeber the truk lagoon video...but you did ring a bell in my mememory it was a national geographic presentation they dove on some shot down allied planes shot down by rufes no-less,all in all a great program.

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Post #: 35
- 8/14/2003 7:36:55 PM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Atoka, TN
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]Of course, in this age of political correct-ness.....there would probably have been a movement by now to give them back to their former owners. Fine as long as they dont get scrapped :D
[/B][/QUOTE]

I actually think that the Prinz Eugen has had one of her screws removed and sent back to Germany as part of some memorial. Any Euros know if this is correct or was I misinformed?

_____________________________

SF3C B. B. New USS North Carolina BB-55 - Permission is granted to go ashore for the last shore leave. (1926-2003)

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Post #: 36
Trophies / Surplus - 8/14/2003 8:11:54 PM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
....[B] Fine as long as they dont get scrapped :D

Alas....for most, all we have are photos of these former Queens of the seas. At least in the end both ships escaped the scrappers [/B][/QUOTE]

Back then all we had was military surplus, but we didn't know what horrible weapons
the nukes were yet, so we tested. Heck we didn't even save the Enterprise (CV6)
from the scrap mans torches. If any ship deserved to be saved it was CV6. :(

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 37
- 8/15/2003 6:33:16 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by showboat1
[B]
I too would love for Ballard to return to Midway and find the remaining ships lost there. By the way, does anyone know if he found any wreckage of the Hammann lying near the Yorktown. [/B][/QUOTE]

I-158 torpedoed Hammann and Yorktown at 1536 June 6 1942, Hammann broke in half sinking on the spot while Yorktown drifted for the next 15 1/2 hours before rolling over and sinking at 0701 June 7 1942. Hammann's wreck would be located many miles away from Yorktown's final resting place and If IRC no trace of any wreckage from Hammann was located during Dr. Ballard's search.

also Prinz Eugen's bell was removed and is on display (or at least was the last time I was there) at the Museum at the Washington Navy Yard. Interesting note is that it is painted black with the lettering in red I am not sure if was the way it was or something done for display purposes.

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Post #: 38
- 8/16/2003 1:08:05 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		other neat exploration ideas....

Ark Royal in the Med would be a nice photo opp. Arguably Britian's most beloved and famous wartime carrier. Barham would be nice though after her explosion there probably isn't much to look at.

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Post #: 39
- 8/16/2003 7:19:36 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]other neat exploration ideas....

Ark Royal in the Med would be a nice photo opp. Arguably Britian's most beloved and famous wartime carrier. Barham would be nice though after her explosion there probably isn't much to look at. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey Nik, They found Ark Royal in December 2002, see the following

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2585887.stm

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Post #: 40
- 8/16/2003 9:42:04 PM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pry
[B]Hey Nik, They found Ark Royal in December 2002, see the following

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2585887.stm [/B][/QUOTE]

I wonder if there is any chance of that documentary being shown here in the states. Any idea what other ships they are looking for? The P.O.W and the Repulse would be good canidates.

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 41
- 8/16/2003 10:13:08 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		Timjot, POW and Repulse have both been located and are being dived on with permission of the UK government as long as they "Look but not Touch or Enter" the wrecks. Seems they were not even considered "War Graves" untill 1986.
I'll see if I can locate that dive page I saw a while back out of OZ that had a few images of Repulse.

One interesting thing I have noticed in the last couple of years that with the advances in ROV's more and more wrecks are being located and filmed. I would like to see the Ark Royal Doc, Maybe if I part with some more of my money and upgrade to digital cable so I can get the BBC channels here then maybe I can see some of these.

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Post #: 42
- 8/16/2003 10:30:51 PM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		When you say dived on do you mean by divers or ROV's. I assumed they must have went down in pretty deep water. Curious how the UK still holds jurisdiction. If in Malaya waters I would think they would hold juridiction. If in international waters are they not in therory fall under international salvagers laws?

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Post #: 43
- 8/16/2003 10:35:49 PM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		BTW, thanks for the info, seems they are finding all the famous wrecks these days. Not many mysteries left.

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Post #: 44
- 8/16/2003 11:19:53 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by TIMJOT
[B]When you say dived on do you mean by divers or ROV's. I assumed they must have went down in pretty deep water. Curious how the UK still holds jurisdiction. If in Malaya waters I would think they would hold juridiction. If in international waters are they not in therory fall under international salvagers laws? [/B][/QUOTE]

POW and Repulse are not that deep, POW is upside down and Repulse is on her side at about 60 meters (180 feet or thereabouts for us metric system challanged Americans) and both can be dived on with special air mixtures.
I am not a diver but I think 120 feet is as far as a recreational diving can go without the special equipment.

Found some Repulse images here
http://www.seimoa.com/Repulse_Article.htm

The jurisdiction issue is interesting, as best as I can remember all USN war wrecks are still the property of the USN (AKA US Government) for eternity by international treaty as "War Graves" The same applies to the cemeteries in France and Belgium. I assume that UK has something similar worked out.

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Post #: 45
- 8/17/2003 12:25:46 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pry
[B]POW and Repulse are not that deep, POW is upside down and Repulse is on her side at about 60 meters (180 feet or thereabouts for us metric system challanged Americans) and both can be dived on with special air mixtures.
I am not a diver but I think 120 feet is as far as a recreational diving can go without the special equipment.

Found some Repulse images here
http://www.seimoa.com/Repulse_Article.htm

The jurisdiction issue is interesting, as best as I can remember all USN war wrecks are still the property of the USN (AKA US Government) for eternity by international treaty as "War Graves" The same applies to the cemeteries in France and Belgium. I assume that UK has something similar worked out. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I guess that counts me out. I only have a open water certification ( max 60ft ) but have gone as deep as 100ft.

I agree they should be treated as war graves. I only asked because I seem to remember some concerns once they discovered the locations of the Bismark and Titanic that salvagers could in theory claim the wrecks.

Thanks again for the info. You seem to have a link to everything:)

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 46
- 8/17/2003 12:42:26 AM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by TIMJOT
[B]
Thanks again for the info. You seem to have a link to everything:) [/B][/QUOTE]
Always remember Google is your friend :D
(over time you figure out what key search words work best)

I started a "Fates of all USN Warships" project back in 95 or so and have gathered a big data base of information. A diving friend of mine told me to check out dive sites for wreck images and in some cases the images I found cleared up the some conflicting fates listed in "Well reguarded" history books. Since then I have gotten very interested in underwater wrecks.

So every now and again I do a wreck search and that is how I found the Yamato images that I started this thread with.

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Post #: 47
- 8/17/2003 12:42:26 AM   
bilbow


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Concord NH
Status: offline 		The practical limit for diving with regular air is about 130 ft, although you can go a bit deeper but you'll get nitrogen narcosis the deeper you go, plus potential decompression issues. Once when I was young and stupid (not so young anymore) I did a dive to 200' to get a picture of the depth gauge. Got the picture and flooded my camera. Stupid and expensive.

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Post #: 48
- 8/17/2003 7:52:07 AM   
dwesolick


Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Very interesting thread. I understand that, for those divers out there, a great site is the former Brit base at Scapa Flow. Most of the German fleet from the FIRST World War rests there after the skeleton crews scuttled them to keep them out of the hands of the Brits (after the war). I believe it is pretty shallow, but COLD, water too.

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"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

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Post #: 49
- 8/17/2003 8:38:19 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		A guy I worked with drowned while scuba diving at Truk lagoon. I was surprised, because I didn't know he was interested in WWII ships, and also that he died exploring them.

From what I understand Truk is a great place for diving and visiting WWII wreckage, but very dangerous for some reason as well.

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"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 50
HMS hermes - 8/17/2003 8:50:01 AM   
Matt Erickson

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: santa barbra, calif
Status: offline 		This carrier was sunk by the japanese in early 42 off ceylon and it is a very very deep dive about five hundred feet if I remember the show correctly...think I'll do a search on it.prett cool link I just found.....http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/hms_hermes.htm

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Post #: 51
- 8/17/2003 10:19:30 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		IIRC one of the alpha testers for WiTP dives on wrecks.............care to put in your 5 cents Drongo?

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 52
- 8/17/2003 12:58:01 PM   
Drongo

 

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline 		Bikini Atoll is always a "one day" for me, when I've got the time and money.

Deepest I've gone was 48 metres on a Jap sub off Gudalcanal. That was enough, as I get scared when you cant see the surface anymore. :p

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drink more beer.

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Post #: 53
Most excellent site about "Force Z" ships &qu... - 8/17/2003 3:08:47 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

There is one most excellent site about "Force Z" ships "Repulse" and "Prince
of Wales":

http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk


There you can find survivor accounts from both sides - British sailors on
ships and Japanese pilots (Japanese pictures and accounts of "Betty" usage are
very interesting).


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 54
- 8/17/2003 8:46:33 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwesolick
[B]I was born and raised in Houston, TX. I visited the (BB) USS Texas many times. The bell of the USS Houston was retrieved by divers many years ago (60s or 70s, I think) and is on display aboard the Texas.

They say a ship's soul resides in its bell. If so, the Houston's soul is perfectly safe. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey Dwesolick,

Seem to recall that the Houston's bell was not retrieved untill 1995 from the wreck, I [I]THINK[/I] you are remembering the bell from the 1st Texas that was on display in the wardroom right next to that big model of the Houston. The model has since been removed, lost for a time, relocated and is now undergoing restoration and will be put on display aboard the Lexington down in Corpus. If I remember right (and I will check out to make sure and let you know) the Houston's bell is located at UH in their memorial.

For a quick trip down memory lane check out a bunch of images we took of the Texas last year... link to images at bottom of page.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/features/texas/texas.htm

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Post #: 55
Prebomb Steel - 8/17/2003 10:49:26 PM   
Heeward


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Lacey Washington
Status: offline 		Most of the ships at Scarpa Flow were salvaged for scrape in the inter-war period (1919-1938), almost all that were left have been salvaged for their prebomb steel. I think only the HMS Vanguard is left and it was being taken apart several years ago.:(

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Post #: 56
Re: Prebomb Steel - 8/18/2003 12:48:22 AM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Heeward
[B] I think only the HMS Vanguard is left and it was being taken apart several years ago.:( [/B][/QUOTE]

HMS Royal Oak is still in Scappa Flow as a war grave with 800+ souls aboard and still on duty.

And here is a list with conditions of wrecks in Scappa Flow :D with some images and a few low rez movies of dives to watch.

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/jralston/rk/scapa/wrecks.html

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Post #: 57
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