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Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 2:42:05 AM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
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I've had some terrible experiences in large scale attacks that twice almost wiped out my army. The other one I think I managed to pinpoint to upgrading the truck station of a conquered city that somehow stopped all the supplies to the attacking army, that was fine until the taking of that city. I think I also see this on other cities when upgrading truck stations that looks like supply is severely affected during the upgrading process.

ANOTHER experience I have had after this when I stopped the upgrading is that I still have extreme supply problems after taking cities that was fine until that. Is it because supply goes to the new city and it's citizens instead? Totally unacceptable :D. I would never allow that and don't think there are instances where this has ever happened. I mean letting your army die out of starvation and use that food for feeding former enemies?

Post #: 1

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 3:40:29 AM

lloydster4

Posts: 164
Joined: 6/19/2020
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First Off:
I think you are too quick jumping to conclusions about logistics. If you haven't already, then I'd suggest you take the time to read the Logistics section in the manual (pages 303-315).

To your Questions:
1) Upgrading a track station will NOT disrupt the output of supply. BUT, while the construction is ongoing it will require metal each turn. That metal must be delivered from your SHQ, and you need to spend logistics points to get it there. If supply lines are already stretched, this could lead to disruption. Note that you can order your SHQ to prioritize Troop supply over Zone supply, if you want to.

2) Regarding newly captured cities: you can choose whether or not to feed them by enabling/disabling "emergency food." To do this, you must call the governor and request to change Zone Orders. However, delivering emergency food will NOT use logistics points. So, it could only disrupt food supply to your troops if you are literally running out of food. Not because it disrupted supply lines.

(in reply to Sieppo)

Post #: 2

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 3:42:16 AM

ramnblam

Posts: 199
Joined: 6/9/2020
From: Australia
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The asset does not cease it's production but what can happen is that the worker pool can get diluted during construction of new assets and therefore your truck station would not be be outputting at max production, in turn making your already shaky supply situation worse. If it was in a conquered city, this could be further compounded by additional problems such as riots/strikes/unhappiness and emigration.

Also make sure your roads aren't getting cut off. Even a turn of no supply to the front buts a quick brake on the offensive.

edit: typo

< Message edited by ramnblam -- 6/27/2020 3:47:32 AM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 6:01:24 AM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply

? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

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Post #: 4

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 6:35:45 AM

ramnblam

Posts: 199
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From: Australia
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It's hard to diagnose your logistics situation without being able to see what's going on in game. You might want to upgrade the truck station in your home city/s to increase the amount of points, you might want to be build a rail line towards the front. You might want to consider building a new truck station half way and creating a new city. Remember each hex is 200kmx200km so while 10 hex distance might not look that far abstracted on the map, it's quite a distance. You can only push so far before you have to lay logistical foundations behind you.

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Post #: 5

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 7:22:54 AM

Sarissofoi

Posts: 329
Joined: 2/1/2010
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you can reduce rate of the new building upgraded/build up so there will be less worked send there
also you can drop extra workers if you use colonist

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Post #: 6

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 8:58:28 AM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

Zone Deliveries happen before Unit Deliveries. If your supply system is barely able to handle step 1, you really need to pause your advance.
Directly after "supressing unrest", Logstics building upgrading and repair are the most common reason to pause a offensive!

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 8:59:29 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 10:11:41 AM

ZiggyMaca

Posts: 41
Joined: 6/20/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

You can set SHQ logistics limitations with the Unit Admin button on the right panel when you select your SHQ.

(in reply to Sieppo)

Post #: 8

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 1:15:09 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

You can set SHQ logistics limitations with the Unit Admin button on the right panel when you select your SHQ.

Thanks!!

(in reply to ZiggyMaca)

Post #: 9

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 1:16:47 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

Zone Deliveries happen before Unit Deliveries. If your supply system is barely able to handle step 1, you really need to pause your advance.
Directly after "supressing unrest", Logstics building upgrading and repair are the most common reason to pause a offensive!

Yes I started pausing after I realized there were some problems and half of my troops started dying around the newly conquered city.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 10

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 1:38:35 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

It's hard to diagnose your logistics situation without being able to see what's going on in game. You might want to upgrade the truck station in your home city/s to increase the amount of points, you might want to be build a rail line towards the front. You might want to consider building a new truck station half way and creating a new city. Remember each hex is 200kmx200km so while 10 hex distance might not look that far abstracted on the map, it's quite a distance. You can only push so far before you have to lay logistical foundations behind you.

I think the current truck station in my capital is IV with a railway station of III, there were two II's and I along the way maybe 10 hex apart and also one city with I and a railway station of I. The I was three hexes from the surrounded city. There was rail to a nearer city station maybe 20 hexes away and rail until the surrounded city waiting for it to be taken, that is why I did not want to build a station or rail head just before it. Thought about it. But all in all I did not think I'd get into any problems since this supply line was STRONG. It just collapsed just after of taking the city.

I also think the mass of my problems now stem from the fact that the planet is huge, my imperium is starting to get huge and even a IV truck station + railway III in my capital, ****loads of truck stations all over the place, every city having a railway station is still just not enough to move as much stuff as everything needs.

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RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 1:44:10 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

You can set SHQ logistics limitations with the Unit Admin button on the right panel when you select your SHQ.

You really should not be changing those. Lowering SHQ > Zone has the potential to stall out your entire economy, as the supplies needed to run stuff no longer reach the Zones where they are needed.
It is the first thing and set to 40% for a good reason.

It would also likely not help. If the bottleneck is not right on top of the SHQ, those changes will not be helping at all. You are only setting yourself up for issues down the road by heedlessly playing around with them. 40/40/30/30 is a solid split.

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Post #: 12

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 1:44:59 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
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I'm terrified of upgrading these bc of the fear it will totally kill the supply of the advancing troops.

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RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 1:59:47 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

I'm terrified of upgrading these bc of the fear it will totally kill the supply of the advancing troops.

I have a bit issues telling where the city in the picture even is. But I think it is the upper middle?
So that would be your Strategic base.

If so, there is little to worry. It seems the Operational base -> Strategic base connection (SHQ > Avigmont?) on the picture is still semi solid.
The issues only start with Strategic Base -> Units. So a Rail Upgraded is unlikely to help you. Something worth looking into later, but not the issue right now.

A Truck upgrade must happen. The only thing that has any hope of making it better temporariy is pulling back the forces, particulary the south.
They need a lot more capacity then that one T1 Truck Station can possibly provide.

Even 200 Metal more being used in the Zone will not take any capacity from the Units. They are limited by those black and red lines behind or paralell to the city. If you got to upgrade for fixing bottlenecks, start on the end that still has some excess Logistics Capacity - wich is your city.

Just upgrade the Avigimonts truck station. Maybe that southern road could be made to carry more? But I am guessing that is a truck line, so the issue is propably more range then capacity related.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 2:07:23 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 2:13:05 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

I'm terrified of upgrading these bc of the fear it will totally kill the supply of the advancing troops.

I have a bit issues telling where the city in the picture even is. But I think it is the upper middle?
So that would be your Strategic base.

If so, there is little to worry. It seems the Operational base -> Strategic base connection (SHQ > Avigmont?) on the picture is still semi solid.
The issues only start with Strategic Base -> Units. So a Rail Upgraded is unlikely to help you. Something worth looking into later, but not the issue right now.

A Truck upgrade must happen. The only thing that has any hope of making it better temporariy is pulling back the forces, particulary the south.
They need a lot more capacity then that one T1 Truck Station can possibly provide.

Even 200 Metal more being used in the Zone will not take any capacity from the Units. They are limited by those black and red lines behind or paralell to the city. If you got to upgrade for fixing bottlenecks, start on the end that still has some excess Logistics Capacity - wich is your city.

Just upgrade the Avigimonts truck station. Maybe that southern road could be made to carry more? But I am guessing that is a truck line, so the issue is propably more range then capacity related.

Yes the move south was just to counter the enemy gouge. I'll likely retreat back to the mountains to sort this supply situation. There is a truck station I in the south (in pic), which is another dilemma, why it is not pushing any LIS out of it. Should be ok in every way. Probably should upgrade it as well.

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RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 2:38:57 PM

zgrssd

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There are 3 basic questions for supply issues (in no particular order):
1. Do I have enough resources in my Operational Base (SHQ) when I hit end turn?
2. Do I have a solid enough connection between my Operational base that the Strategic base?
3. Do I have a solid enough connection between my Strategic base and the units?

I can not tell 1, because you have Type 2 or 3 issues. Only after those are fixed, do you have any hope of answering the 1 question.

For the Victoria Truckstation, it is propably a 2 and 3. I am not sure it is worth investing anything into it. Unless you plan to build towards the lake, I see no point for it or the roads down there.
For the city, I think I see a 5 digit Rail line. That would exclude any chance for a Type 2. Meanwhile there is every indication for a Type 3 block, like 2 digit numbers on those roads.

A intersting point is the city in the north/east of the imagse.
This could become your new Strategic Base mid-term.
It seems like you blocked it from sending trucks between it and the current Strategic base. Wich is more then a little bit wierd, becuase that is exactly the part that has issues.

The SHQ will not send stuff, if there is not a unbroken chain of Railcars and trucks for it all the way to Unit.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 2:41:20 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 2:43:08 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

There are 3 basic questions for supply issues (in no particular order):
1. Do I have enough resources in my Operational Base (SHQ) when I hit end turn?
2. Do I have a solid enough connection between my Operational base that the Strategic base?
3. Do I have a solid enough connection between my Strategic base and the units?

I can not tell 1, because you have Type 2 or 3 issues. Only after those are fixed, do you have any hope of answering the 1 question.

For the Victoria Truckstation, it is propably a 2 and 3. I am not sure it is worth investing anything into it. Unless you plan to build towards the lake, I see no point for it or the roads down there.
For the city, I think I see a 5 digit Rail line. That would exclude any chance for a Type 2. Meanwhile there is every indication for a Type 3 block, like 2 digit numbers on those roads.

A intersting point is the city in the north/east of the imagse.
This could become your new Strategic Base mid-term.
It seems like you blocked it from sending trucks between it and the current Strategic base. Wich is more then a little bit wierd, becuase that is exactly the part that has issues.

The SHQ will not send stuff, if there is not a unbroken chain of Railcars and trucks for it all the way to Unit.

If there was a city in the NE but there is not :/. That 200kb image limit is truly terrible..

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RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 3:47:45 PM

Jdane

Posts: 456
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FYI, it is possible to upload an image elsewhere, and link it from here, for example:

(You can even make the image itself an hyperlink, as you might see if you quote my message.)

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/27/2020 3:49:01 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 4:08:11 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
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From: Helsinki, Finland
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As if in just paste the link and the image will appear?

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RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 5:16:07 PM

Jdane

Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
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You would need to use the � image � button and paste the link to the picture in the pop up window, or you could do that the old fashioned way such as:

[image]your_picture.com[/image]

In my previous message this is what is written:

[link=http://imgbox.com/KfpbWkiA][image]https://images2.imgbox.com/3d/ef/KfpbWkiA_o.jpg[/image][/link]

Apologies for drifting off-topic for a bit here.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/27/2020 5:17:55 PM >

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Post #: 20

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 5:36:39 PM

Justus2

Posts: 729
Joined: 11/12/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

You can set SHQ logistics limitations with the Unit Admin button on the right panel when you select your SHQ.

You really should not be changing those. Lowering SHQ > Zone has the potential to stall out your entire economy, as the supplies needed to run stuff no longer reach the Zones where they are needed.
It is the first thing and set to 40% for a good reason.

It would also likely not help. If the bottleneck is not right on top of the SHQ, those changes will not be helping at all. You are only setting yourself up for issues down the road by heedlessly playing around with them. 40/40/30/30 is a solid split.

I agree with the potential problems, but I think there are situations where adjusting these percentages for a short period can be helpful. For example, if during an offensive you have a major backlog of replacements at SHQ that can't get to the front, dropping the first 3 categories to reserve most of the throughput for replacements can prioritize getting those to the units that need them, and will be more responsive than upgrading your logistics infrastructure (which will take several turns to see the impact). As you point out, you are taking risk with your economy, but slowing construction or flow to stockpiles for a turn or two may be worth the risk to reinforce an army in contact.

Here's my reasoning:
SHQ>Zone 20% Need to still ensure some resources are getting out to the zones
SHQ>Unit 30% If you are in combat, you still need basic supplies getting out
Zone>SHQ 10% You can take the most risk here, it will delay getting material to your stockpiles, but hopefully you have a buffer
Rep>Unit 80% At most you have spent 60% so far, but anything not spent rolls to the next step, so this ensures that you will have at least 40% throughput available, and potentially as much as double if the prior steps didnt use as much.
Anything left over after this step rolls back to step 1, going over the set %, so if you don't need all of it you will get some more movement to the zones.

I would only do this for one turn or at most 2, just make SURE to switch it back when the replacements have been distributed. Then return to your 'default' percentages, and focus on building up infrastructure so you don't have that backlog in the future.

EDIT: Typos

< Message edited by Justus2 -- 6/27/2020 5:38:13 PM >

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RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 6:21:38 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

You can set SHQ logistics limitations with the Unit Admin button on the right panel when you select your SHQ.

You really should not be changing those. Lowering SHQ > Zone has the potential to stall out your entire economy, as the supplies needed to run stuff no longer reach the Zones where they are needed.
It is the first thing and set to 40% for a good reason.

It would also likely not help. If the bottleneck is not right on top of the SHQ, those changes will not be helping at all. You are only setting yourself up for issues down the road by heedlessly playing around with them. 40/40/30/30 is a solid split.

I agree with the potential problems, but I think there are situations where adjusting these percentages for a short period can be helpful. For example, if during an offensive you have a major backlog of replacements at SHQ that can't get to the front, dropping the first 3 categories to reserve most of the throughput for replacements can prioritize getting those to the units that need them, and will be more responsive than upgrading your logistics infrastructure (which will take several turns to see the impact). As you point out, you are taking risk with your economy, but slowing construction or flow to stockpiles for a turn or two may be worth the risk to reinforce an army in contact.

That is more people on the front, meaning:
- you need to deliver even more food, when you already had issues
- you need to deliver even more ammo, when you already could not transport enough
- propably worse "out of supply" penalties, because your food delivieries did not improove but your consumption made a jump
- so you will get more losses from poorer performance
- you delayed getting the underlying issue fixed, by doing this instead of building logistics for 1-2 turns.

Shipping more people to a front you already can not supply, is just more people that will die to starvation and lack of ammo.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 6:22:31 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Truck stations stop working when upgraded? - 6/27/2020 6:47:46 PM

Justus2

Posts: 729
Joined: 11/12/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Thanks for the answers. I guess sudden work at a thinly working supply line at the front might be a good reason a disruption but it still makes no sense why heroic troops will just be let to starve and die since there is "more important things to be done". Thus, where can I prioritise that troop supply ? I don't care about rioting enemies, let them eat cake! And metal supply in home country cities also can make sense but that's kind of silly too. .

You can set SHQ logistics limitations with the Unit Admin button on the right panel when you select your SHQ.

You really should not be changing those. Lowering SHQ > Zone has the potential to stall out your entire economy, as the supplies needed to run stuff no longer reach the Zones where they are needed.
It is the first thing and set to 40% for a good reason.

It would also likely not help. If the bottleneck is not right on top of the SHQ, those changes will not be helping at all. You are only setting yourself up for issues down the road by heedlessly playing around with them. 40/40/30/30 is a solid split.

I agree with the potential problems, but I think there are situations where adjusting these percentages for a short period can be helpful. For example, if during an offensive you have a major backlog of replacements at SHQ that can't get to the front, dropping the first 3 categories to reserve most of the throughput for replacements can prioritize getting those to the units that need them, and will be more responsive than upgrading your logistics infrastructure (which will take several turns to see the impact). As you point out, you are taking risk with your economy, but slowing construction or flow to stockpiles for a turn or two may be worth the risk to reinforce an army in contact.

That is more people on the front, meaning:
- you need to deliver even more food, when you already had issues
- you need to deliver even more ammo, when you already could not transport enough
- propably worse "out of supply" penalties, because your food delivieries did not improove but your consumption made a jump
- so you will get more losses from poorer performance
- you delayed getting the underlying issue fixed, by doing this instead of building logistics for 1-2 turns.

Shipping more people to a front you already can not supply, is just more people that will die to starvation and lack of ammo.

The challenge is the % are set for the entire SHQ area, not per route. So while you may have trouble supplying food, ammo or replacements to that front, the SHQ percentages will prioritize moving food, fuel and metal from the SHQ to the cities of that zone ahead of supplies to the units, and then prioritize gathering resources from the zone ahead of replacements. Overall, those priorities are important for the economy, but when applied to that specific branch, that can lead to unsupplied/ill-equipped troops. Changing the percentages in the short term will ensure that supplies to the troops and replacements take priority on the branches that have demand for those things, while the rest of your emplire (which wont have much need for military supplies/branches) will roll over the excess logistics and still maintain the economy.

If you are really struggling that much to feed your army, then I would reduce the SHQ>Zone to 10% and bump up SHQ>Unit to 40% (I haven't had to make it that drastic) - then you might get what the OP asked (starve the new cities along that branch, but feed the troops), but for the rest of your empire there will be little effect, as there is no great demand for unit supply or replacement so the excess will roll back over to SHQ>Zone anyway.

_____________________________

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Post #: 23