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Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 8:54:24 AM

jimwinsor

Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline

I realize I�m chiming in a bit late to this debate, but I finally got around to trying the out the new pull points supply system. The delay was due to having to finish up a run started under 1.2. And I wanted to give pull points a fair shake, with actual play experience to base my opinion on. So I begun a fresh campaign with the latest 1.4 beta a few days ago.

This new campaign is progressing enough now to make some informed opinions, and I have to say ... overall, I�m not a huge fan of pull points. There are a couple issues I have with them.

1) The first issue is game immersion. This is a point that hasn�t been brought up much, I don�t think. But for me, it feels better, as a commander, for me to be pushing out ie dispatching supply, than for me to be telling individual hexes how much they should be pulling in. The former feels more like what a real commander would be doing, while the latter feels more like a gamer sitting behind a computer screen would be doing when trying to min-max a strategy game.

2) I will admit, I was impressed with how long I was able to play under pull points, without ever having to think much about supply. This is something that will no doubt be a godsend to a new player just learning the game. However, when a supply mystery does finally rear its ugly head, pull points make solving the problem much more complicated, IMO.

For example, in my latest campaign, I had a new truck station in a town, with a road going out of it to the southwest, and another opposite to it leading northeast. There was an artifact ruin to the northeast, so I eagerly ordered a recycling center to be built there.

Next turn, I notice no progress on the recycler, due to lack of supply points. Hmm. Check the town hex, and see that all 800 truck points are being Pulled to the southwest.

Now the hex where the recycler is being built has 140 pull points, but that does not seem to matter ... the 800 pull points in the polar opposite direction are taking priority. No idea why ... in fact it�s a bit odd, as my capital is down that road and has a ton of trucks to deal with supply requests. How do I deprioritize the pull points I don�t like? There are an impressive array of new buttons relating to pull points on the traffic signal window, and a half hour of trial and error should allow me to fix this problem ...

... OR I could just unclick those 3 buttons on the bottom and disable the pull point system entirely. If I were to do that, I know exactly what would happen: 400 truck points would go southwest, and 400 truck points would go northeast, just like I want them to. Simple!

And that�s exactly what I did, and that�s exactly what happened. The recycler got finished, and all the supply eaters to the southwest seemed to be just fine as well.

So in the long run, I find the old system to be much less hassle when you are an experienced player, so I�ll be sticking with it. My advice would be for pull points on to be the default for easy difficulty, and off for normal difficulty and above.

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Post #: 1

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 10:28:46 AM

Shards

Posts: 72
Joined: 8/25/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Now the hex where the recycler is being built has 140 pull points, but that does not seem to matter ... the 800 pull points in the polar opposite direction are taking priority.

FWIW, that sounds like a bug to fix? Do you happen to have a save for that?

(in reply to jimwinsor)

Post #: 2

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 12:56:38 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

Yeah I still don't "get" any other explanation for a pull system but perceived difficulty. I love the supply system and the control it gives you, just like it probably would be irl. Just finished my third game and pretty much had no problem with it. If not enough supply, build truck stations and rail stations and upgrade roads when available. Always connect your cities by rail. If bottlenecks, build and upgrade truck and rail stations. That's it. Traffic signs are no hassle after tens of hours of game time and become routine (just fix issue of the private industry stealing half of your supply by surprise assets ;)! The pull system could help here..).

And it's not like units get to call for supply that much in the larger picture, it's the supply system implemented by the high command. But as long as the push system is kept and improved, I have no problem for an option to exist.

EDIT: I also want to add that I do not want to sound elitistic. I understand people have different possibilities to study, research and put their mind into gaming. Sometimes you just need something less demanding and I admit I have plenty of times stopped playing because just ran out of energy to concentrate any more.

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 7/14/2020 12:58:57 PM >

(in reply to Shards)

Post #: 3

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 1:31:58 PM

Destragon

Posts: 475
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

The pull logistics are a pretty ambitious addition to the game, and because of that it requires a lot of debugging work to make sure that it works properly as intended. Vic is doing a pretty damn good job of fixing the bugs and weirdness in the behavior when it is found, but I think it still needs a bit more work.
A big problem with the pull system right now is that, as far as I can tell, it completely ignores the remaining action points of the individual logistics streams, making you still have to do some traffic managing now and then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

1) The first issue is game immersion. This is a point that hasn�t been brought up much, I don�t think. But for me, it feels better, as a commander, for me to be pushing out ie dispatching supply, than for me to be telling individual hexes how much they should be pulling in. The former feels more like what a real commander would be doing, while the latter feels more like a gamer sitting behind a computer screen would be doing when trying to min-max a strategy game.

Weird, I think it's the absolute opposite. Putting traffic signs on roads as the ruler of the nation feels completely immersion breaking to me.
Meanwhile, deciding which assets and points of interest should be receiving logistics or should be denied logistics sounds like something a ruler would handle to me, while your subordinates handle the traffic signs to make sure that the logistics actually reach the points that you want them to reach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Next turn, I notice no progress on the recycler, due to lack of supply points. Hmm. Check the town hex, and see that all 800 truck points are being Pulled to the southwest.

It's hard to understand what's going on there without screenshots or the save file. Keep in mind, this is still a beta test, so we're still searching for weird behavior exactly like this.

(in reply to jimwinsor)

Post #: 4

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 1:40:31 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

I have to say ... overall, I�m not a huge fan of pull points. There are a couple issues I have with them.

1) The first issue is game immersion. This is a point that hasn�t been brought up much, I don�t think. But for me, it feels better, as a commander, for me to be pushing out ie dispatching supply, than for me to be telling individual hexes how much they should be pulling in. The former feels more like what a real commander would be doing, while the latter feels more like a gamer sitting behind a computer screen would be doing when trying to min-max a strategy game.

Agreed!

For me too it's like that. AND as you say it's more friendly to learn (because you have to, so there's no steep wall, just a serious climb).

I tried the new but switched it off and I will just continue playing with the old system.

(in reply to jimwinsor)

Post #: 5

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 1:49:33 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

The pull logistics are a pretty ambitious addition to the game, and because of that it requires a lot of debugging work to make sure that it works properly as intended. Vic is doing a pretty damn good job of fixing the bugs and weirdness in the behavior when it is found, but I think it still needs a bit more work.
A big problem with the pull system right now is that, as far as I can tell, it completely ignores the remaining action points of the individual logistics streams, making you still have to do some traffic managing now and then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

1) The first issue is game immersion. This is a point that hasn�t been brought up much, I don�t think. But for me, it feels better, as a commander, for me to be pushing out ie dispatching supply, than for me to be telling individual hexes how much they should be pulling in. The former feels more like what a real commander would be doing, while the latter feels more like a gamer sitting behind a computer screen would be doing when trying to min-max a strategy game.

Weird, I think it's the absolute opposite. Putting traffic signs on roads as the ruler of the nation feels completely immersion breaking to me.
Meanwhile, deciding which assets and points of interest should be receiving logistics or should be denied logistics sounds like something a ruler would handle to me, while your subordinates handle the traffic signs to make sure that the logistics actually reach the points that you want them to reach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Next turn, I notice no progress on the recycler, due to lack of supply points. Hmm. Check the town hex, and see that all 800 truck points are being Pulled to the southwest.

It's hard to understand what's going on there without screenshots or the save file. Keep in mind, this is still a beta test, so we're still searching for weird behavior exactly like this.

The thing is, you don't want to go down that road that everything specific you need to do in this game is what rulers do irl ;).. Picking up stratagem cards? I could go on forever but it'd turn silly. It's all about RULING. Being in charge. I see using traffic signs as being in charge. Being responsible for the supply to work. I don't want stuff automated or hidden, all other games do that. I'm a Dwarf Fortress kind of guy :D.. I want as close to realism and complexity as you can get. I need my digital crack since nothing else works anymore.

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 7/14/2020 1:51:25 PM >

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 6

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 1:59:55 PM

Destragon

Posts: 475
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

The thing is, you don't want to go down that road that everything specific you need to do in this game is what rulers do irl ;).. Picking up stratagem cards? I could go on forever but it'd turn silly. It's all about RULING. Being in charge. I see using traffic signs as being in charge. Being responsible for the supply to work. I don't want stuff automated or hidden, all other games do that. I'm a Dwarf Fortress kind of guy :D.. I want as close to realism and complexity as you can get. I need my digital crack since nothing else works anymore.

Jimwinsor started the immersion argument, not me.
Stratagem cards are actually a pretty good example of how this game makes you feel like an actual ruler, not a micromanager, though. Instead of just deciding yourself that you want to send a spy somewhere, you have to fund your secret service council and wait for them to come up with the plan. The stratagem system is pretty much just you giving the OK to a plan that your subordinates came up with.
I'm also a Dwarf Fortress guy. DF has a lot of ingame automation, too, by the way.

(in reply to Sieppo)

Post #: 7

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 2:04:01 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

The thing is, you don't want to go down that road that everything specific you need to do in this game is what rulers do irl ;).. Picking up stratagem cards? I could go on forever but it'd turn silly. It's all about RULING. Being in charge. I see using traffic signs as being in charge. Being responsible for the supply to work. I don't want stuff automated or hidden, all other games do that. I'm a Dwarf Fortress kind of guy :D.. I want as close to realism and complexity as you can get. I need my digital crack since nothing else works anymore.

Jimwinsor started the immersion argument, not me.
Stratagem cards are actually a pretty good example of how this game makes you feel like an actual ruler, not a micromanager, though. Instead of just deciding yourself that you want to send a spy somewhere, you have to fund your secret service council and wait for them to come up with the plan. The stratagem system is pretty much just you giving the OK to a plan that your subordinates came up with.
I'm also a Dwarf Fortress guy. DF has a lot of ingame automation, too, by the way.

Yeah but you get my point. Building a 100km stretch of road? Which main leader or president in modern times ever decided and approved that? It's a public servants job, a specialist. But I still like to make that decision since after that I can include it into my main plan. It's a game. A game.

(in reply to Destragon)

Post #: 8

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 2:10:38 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

The thing is, you don't want to go down that road that everything specific you need to do in this game is what rulers do irl ;).. Picking up stratagem cards? I could go on forever but it'd turn silly. It's all about RULING. Being in charge. I see using traffic signs as being in charge. Being responsible for the supply to work. I don't want stuff automated or hidden, all other games do that. I'm a Dwarf Fortress kind of guy :D.. I want as close to realism and complexity as you can get. I need my digital crack since nothing else works anymore.

Jimwinsor started the immersion argument, not me.
Stratagem cards are actually a pretty good example of how this game makes you feel like an actual ruler, not a micromanager, though. Instead of just deciding yourself that you want to send a spy somewhere, you have to fund your secret service council and wait for them to come up with the plan. The stratagem system is pretty much just you giving the OK to a plan that your subordinates came up with.
I'm also a Dwarf Fortress guy. DF has a lot of ingame automation, too, by the way.

Yeah but you get my point. Building a 100km stretch of road? Which main leader or president in modern times ever decided and approved that? It's a public servants job, a specialist. But I still like to make that decision since after that I can include it into my main plan. It's a game. A game.

I'd also like to pull the Hitler card again on something I've mentioned before. Hitler meddled, as a corporal, so much in the war effort, his generals tried to assassinate him for it.

(in reply to Sieppo)

Post #: 9

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 2:14:16 PM

Covski

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/4/2020
Status: offline

The immersion point is interesting to me, especially since the community at large seems to be so divided on it. For me personally the pull system feels a lot more immersive than the old system: In any large scale logistics system, the strategic command would have a very clear idea and specific plans for what and how much supplies all the different units in the field would require (as simulated by the pull system), and most of the work would be figuring out HOW to get the supplies where it needed to go (as simulated by having the power to construct truck and rail stations, and the roads/rails needed for them to operate). This is, to me, a much better simulation of a logistics operation than having the trucks split up 50-50 on every intersection unless told otherwise, regardless of what those trucks would be carrying.

As I think I've mentioned previously, the main thing I'm missing is a way to prioritise the supply to specific units/OHQs to ensure that the important units needed for an offensive is operating at full capacity. I'd also like to see the same feature for construction - only being able to deprioritise certain projects is a pretty blunt tool to use when you want a certain asset up and running ASAP.

(in reply to Sieppo)

Post #: 10

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 2:20:11 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covski

The immersion point is interesting to me, especially since the community at large seems to be so divided on it. For me personally the pull system feels a lot more immersive than the old system: In any large scale logistics system, the strategic command would have a very clear idea and specific plans for what and how much supplies all the different units in the field would require (as simulated by the pull system), and most of the work would be figuring out HOW to get the supplies where it needed to go (as simulated by having the power to construct truck and rail stations, and the roads/rails needed for them to operate). This is, to me, a much better simulation of a logistics operation than having the trucks split up 50-50 on every intersection unless told otherwise, regardless of what those trucks would be carrying.

As I think I've mentioned previously, the main thing I'm missing is a way to prioritise the supply to specific units/OHQs to ensure that the important units needed for an offensive is operating at full capacity. I'd also like to see the same feature for construction - only being able to deprioritise certain projects is a pretty blunt tool to use when you want a certain asset up and running ASAP.

I just have the general feeling the pull system is too automated and disregards the fact that people make mistakes and there are delays and when people make mistakes things go wrong. Supply has had a huge impact on warfare. I just think the push system is a very fresh and challenging idea that of course still needs to refined, not replaced with something "easier".

(in reply to Covski)

Post #: 11

RE: Thoughts on pull points - 7/14/2020 2:25:30 PM

Sieppo

Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

I also kind of understand that it'd be cleaner, if supply worked perfectly within the bounds it has. I suppose most if not all serious war games work like this. Still I really like the system now and it also kind of fits the post apocalyptic wasteland scenario where basically everyone is just a survivor.

(in reply to Sieppo)

Post #: 12