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Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1

 
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Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/15/2020 10:45:24 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		If you split up the KB as part of turn 0 prep, does that impact the movement bonus or other things for the actual turn 1 turn ?
Post #: 1
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/15/2020 11:05:10 PM   
Evoken

 

Posts: 488
Joined: 10/23/2019
Status: offline 		It doesnt as long as you transfer them over to other task forces with movement bonus , method of doing it
Go to midway bombardement group > switch them to escort > transfer ships you want > switch them to Air combat and you are set!

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 2
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/15/2020 11:26:22 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		So if I want to split two slow CV's and some escorts elsewhere I need to transfer them to an existing TF (in the same hex ?)

(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 3
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/15/2020 11:31:05 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		yes.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 4
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/15/2020 11:39:28 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

So if I want to split two slow CV's and some escorts elsewhere I need to transfer them to an existing TF (in the same hex ?)

There are a limited number of TFs that get the magic move on Turn 1. They are identified by an asterisk, IIRC. You must transfer to one of the other magic move TFs in the same hex. If you transfer to another TF that does not have that designation, the TF will move as a normal TF.

I tried once in the Editor to give the Magic Move to more IJ TFs, but it didn't work. It must be hard-coded in the game and the asterisk is just there to show the player which ones are set that way.

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(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 5
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/15/2020 11:43:23 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

So if I want to split two slow CV's and some escorts elsewhere I need to transfer them to an existing TF (in the same hex ?)

There are a limited number of TFs that get the magic move on Turn 1. They are identified by an asterisk, IIRC. You must transfer to one of the other magic move TFs in the same hex. If you transfer to another TF that does not have that designation, the TF will move as a normal TF.

I tried once in the Editor to give the Magic Move to more IJ TFs, but it didn't work. It must be hard-coded in the game and the asterisk is just there to show the player which ones are set that way.


Have never tried this, but was given something of a blank check as to turn 1 and thinking about two troublesome targets which require the magical turn 1 movement .....

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 6
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/18/2020 6:41:26 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken

It doesnt as long as you transfer them over to other task forces with movement bonus , method of doing it
Go to midway bombardement group > switch them to escort > transfer ships you want > switch them to Air combat and you are set!


Midway Bombardment TF is NOT listed with an * ..... Sc 2 ....Only 2 TF's with * .... Air Combat and Replenishment ... ????

(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 7
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/18/2020 7:15:06 PM   
RADM.Yamaguchi


Posts: 765
Joined: 6/30/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken

It doesnt as long as you transfer them over to other task forces with movement bonus , method of doing it
Go to midway bombardement group > switch them to escort > transfer ships you want > switch them to Air combat and you are set!


Midway Bombardment TF is NOT listed with an * ..... Sc 2 ....Only 2 TF's with * .... Air Combat and Replenishment ... ????

Yes that's true. But actually all the TFs that start at Etorofu have the movement bonus. It fooled me too for a while.

TF1, TF2, TF141 and TF142 all are there IIRC

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 8
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/18/2020 8:30:53 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
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From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken

It doesnt as long as you transfer them over to other task forces with movement bonus , method of doing it
Go to midway bombardement group > switch them to escort > transfer ships you want > switch them to Air combat and you are set!


Midway Bombardment TF is NOT listed with an * ..... Sc 2 ....Only 2 TF's with * .... Air Combat and Replenishment ... ????

Yes that's true. But actually all the TFs that start at Etorofu have the movement bonus. It fooled me too for a while.

TF1, TF2, TF141 and TF142 all are there IIRC



Sweet ..... but would have been clearer had they added the * to ALL appropriate TF's .... Thanks for the heads up ....

(in reply to RADM.Yamaguchi)
Post #: 9
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/19/2020 9:26:01 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi
Yes that's true. But actually all the TFs that start at Etorofu have the movement bonus. It fooled me too for a while.

TF1, TF2, TF141 and TF142 all are there IIRC


Midway replenish and Midway bombardment are actually TF140 and TF141. And also they are the only TFs in stock 1,2 scenarios that have 1st turn bonus without the asterisk in the name. All the other sprinters are properly marked. So don't bother searching for other hidden sprinters

(in reply to RADM.Yamaguchi)
Post #: 10
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/19/2020 10:10:48 AM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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From: Florida, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken

It doesnt as long as you transfer them over to other task forces with movement bonus , method of doing it
Go to midway bombardement group > switch them to escort > transfer ships you want > switch them to Air combat and you are set!


Midway Bombardment TF is NOT listed with an * ..... Sc 2 ....Only 2 TF's with * .... Air Combat and Replenishment ... ????

Yes that's true. But actually all the TFs that start at Etorofu have the movement bonus. It fooled me too for a while.

TF1, TF2, TF141 and TF142 all are there IIRC



Sweet ..... but would have been clearer had they added the * to ALL appropriate TF's .... Thanks for the heads up ....


While you're at it - the TFs at Samah are a mess. The regiments of 5 and 18 Divisions are initially tasked with various destinations spread all over Malaya, which make it time consuming to recombine into the divisions. These, too, can be reconfigured and many of them have the bonus move. Also, double check that Singora, Patani, Kota Bharu (and Kuantan and Mersing, if you're going to either) get aviation support and engineers early on.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 11
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/19/2020 3:56:58 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		you should test against the AI... nothing worst than sending a 1st turn that messed up the bonus surprise attack

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RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/19/2020 4:36:00 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I've sent KAGA and the 2 KONGOS in KB to the SRA early.....so yes you can do this. Combining KAGA with RYUJO, ZUIHO, HOSHO early gives you a credible Baby KB in the SRA...probably enough to take on anything short of 4 USN CVs early

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RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 12:42:52 AM   
paradigmblue

 

Posts: 784
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

you should test against the AI... nothing worst than sending a 1st turn that messed up the bonus surprise attack


A thousand times this. You should test and re-test your first turn as Japan vs the AI. It can make a world of difference.

As far as recombining the magic move TFs, there are a lot of very interesting things you can do with them - there is a lot to be said for taking your non-magic move TFs and just absorbing into the magic move TFs so the troops all arrive together - and faster - rather than waiting for the regular TFs to make the journey. The Mersing Gambit is of course one option, but you can also go for a first turn Singapore invasion or Bataan invasion by adding enough extra low-value xAKLs to your magic move TFs to help soak naval gunfire. Doing so can cut weeks off your timeline in the Philippines and DEI.

But whatever you do test it, tweak it, and test it again.


(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 14
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 12:47:25 AM   
RADM.Yamaguchi


Posts: 765
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

you should test against the AI... nothing worst than sending a 1st turn that messed up the bonus surprise attack


A thousand times this. You should test and re-test your first turn as Japan vs the AI. It can make a world of difference.

As far as recombining the magic move TFs, there are a lot of very interesting things you can do with them - there is a lot to be said for taking your non-magic move TFs and just absorbing into the magic move TFs so the troops all arrive together - and faster - rather than waiting for the regular TFs to make the journey. The Mersing Gambit is of course one option, but you can also go for a first turn Singapore invasion or Bataan invasion by adding enough extra low-value xAKLs to your magic move TFs to help soak naval gunfire. Doing so can cut weeks off your timeline in the Philippines and DEI.

But whatever you do test it, tweak it, and test it again.



Paradigm - that's some great stuff. I thought i was a bit adventurous about my 1st turn landings but i never even considered bataan or singapore. Wow.

(in reply to paradigmblue)
Post #: 15
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 1:17:29 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Some people might object to adding additional ships to the magic move task forces. In reality, they would be seen sailing towards their target and then there may have been no surprise.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RADM.Yamaguchi)
Post #: 16
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 2:02:00 AM   
paradigmblue

 

Posts: 784
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi


quote:

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

you should test against the AI... nothing worst than sending a 1st turn that messed up the bonus surprise attack


A thousand times this. You should test and re-test your first turn as Japan vs the AI. It can make a world of difference.

As far as recombining the magic move TFs, there are a lot of very interesting things you can do with them - there is a lot to be said for taking your non-magic move TFs and just absorbing into the magic move TFs so the troops all arrive together - and faster - rather than waiting for the regular TFs to make the journey. The Mersing Gambit is of course one option, but you can also go for a first turn Singapore invasion or Bataan invasion by adding enough extra low-value xAKLs to your magic move TFs to help soak naval gunfire. Doing so can cut weeks off your timeline in the Philippines and DEI.

But whatever you do test it, tweak it, and test it again.



Paradigm - that's some great stuff. I thought i was a bit adventurous about my 1st turn landings but i never even considered bataan or singapore. Wow.


You have to be able to stomach some serious losses to make the landings work, and not everyone will want to make the sacrifice. But if you are willing to sacrifice ~25 xAKs and xAKLs sunk (and a similar number damaged) on December 7th, you can take Singapore on December 8th. You also may have to forfeit the Pearl strike, because if you go this route you absolutely want air cover.

(in reply to RADM.Yamaguchi)
Post #: 17
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 3:41:57 AM   
Alamander

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 4/29/2020
Status: offline 		You can also have Magic move TFs link up with other TFs and "carry them" to a destination... by setting the other TF to "meet" the magic move TF and then "merge" with the magic move TF. This is complex, and the TFs often do not link up, unless the magic move TF routs very near the TF that it is to meet, so it is only helpful for a couple of specific moves. This can be helpful in a stock game, because you have a 2 DD TFs in the home islands that can "carry" your CVLs or BBs or an amphibious TF (such as the one at Okinawa) to a destination near Malaysia or Mindanao.

Also, be careful using waypoints with magic move TFs. They will sometimes stop their magic move at the first waypoint, and then take 1 regular movement phase (3 or 4 hexes) after this first waypoint.

Also, you can load ships in a magic move TF and still get the magic move, but be sure not to load supplies, troops only: otherwise the TF will still be loading once the movement phase begins and miss its magic move. What I do typically is transfer all but one ship out of a magic move TF (so as not to destroy the TF), then dock it (after undocking everything else), fill up this TF with xAKs or xAPs until the docking capacity is reached (especially at Samah and Pescadores) and then load what I want to add to my initial amphibious moves (usually an HQ, naval support, or air support). This TF will then benefit from the magic move after loading troops only and you can get a few additional essential units to couple destinations on turn one.


(in reply to paradigmblue)
Post #: 18
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 4:48:37 AM   
paradigmblue

 

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From: Fairbanks, Alaska
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alamander

Also, you can load ships in a magic move TF and still get the magic move, but be sure not to load supplies, troops only: otherwise the TF will still be loading once the movement phase begins and miss its magic move. What I do typically is transfer all but one ship out of a magic move TF (so as not to destroy the TF), then dock it (after undocking everything else), fill up this TF with xAKs or xAPs until the docking capacity is reached (especially at Samah and Pescadores) and then load what I want to add to my initial amphibious moves (usually an HQ, naval support, or air support). This TF will then benefit from the magic move after loading troops only and you can get a few additional essential units to couple destinations on turn one.


Another great point.

(in reply to Alamander)
Post #: 19
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 10:47:56 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Technically, those magic move TFs were actually sailing already and were not at the port. Adding ships and ground units to them, I would consider that gamey. If I played someone in a PBEM that did that, I would send an e-mail that said "Have a nice life."

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to paradigmblue)
Post #: 20
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 11:30:48 AM   
awaw

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 1/11/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alamander

You can also have Magic move TFs link up with other TFs and "carry them" to a destination... by setting the other TF to "meet" the magic move TF and then "merge" with the magic move TF. This is complex, and the TFs often do not link up, unless the magic move TF routs very near the TF that it is to meet, so it is only helpful for a couple of specific moves. This can be helpful in a stock game, because you have a 2 DD TFs in the home islands that can "carry" your CVLs or BBs or an amphibious TF (such as the one at Okinawa) to a destination near Malaysia or Mindanao.

Also, be careful using waypoints with magic move TFs. They will sometimes stop their magic move at the first waypoint, and then take 1 regular movement phase (3 or 4 hexes) after this first waypoint


Hi, can you provide step by step instructions on this merging/magic move combo? I am unable to replicate it, thanks!


< Message edited by awaw -- 7/20/2020 11:32:30 AM >

(in reply to Alamander)
Post #: 21
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 11:36:22 AM   
Evoken

 

Posts: 488
Joined: 10/23/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw


Hi, can you provide step by step instructions on this merging/magic move combo? I am unable to replicate it, thanks!


Create the non magic move task force > route the magic move task force through non magic move task force with a waypoint > tell non magic move task force to merge with magic move task force > success
Some notes; Magic move task forces doesnt burn fuel and they dont take system damage from full speed ,so use full speed for maximum effect

(in reply to awaw)
Post #: 22
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 11:39:28 AM   
Evoken

 

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Joined: 10/23/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Technically, those magic move TFs were actually sailing already and were not at the port. Adding ships and ground units to them, I would consider that gamey. If I played someone in a PBEM that did that, I would send an e-mail that said "Have a nice life."

Not gonna get in to a discussion of this but i personally love it when my opponent gets creative with turn 1 moves , i dont want same old historical start that has been played thousands of times

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 23
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 11:57:20 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Technically, those magic move TFs were actually sailing already and were not at the port. Adding ships and ground units to them, I would consider that gamey. If I played someone in a PBEM that did that, I would send an e-mail that said "Have a nice life."

Not gonna get in to a discussion of this but i personally love it when my opponent gets creative with turn 1 moves , i dont want same old historical start that has been played thousands of times


Then invade Kona or Prince Rupert.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 24
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 12:53:29 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken
quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw
Hi, can you provide step by step instructions on this merging/magic move combo? I am unable to replicate it, thanks!

Create the non magic move task force > route the magic move task force through non magic move task force with a waypoint > tell non magic move task force to merge with magic move task force > success
Some notes; Magic move task forces doesnt burn fuel and they dont take system damage from full speed ,so use full speed for maximum effect

I second that it works exactly as described. The idea is to ensure that non-magic TF spends an absolute minimum of its action points before the merger. Because the remaining action points % transfer to a magic-move TF and applies as a restriction to further magic move.

I picked up BBs and CVL/CVEs from Home Islands all the way to CRB this way.

(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 25
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 3:54:25 PM   
paradigmblue

 

Posts: 784
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Technically, those magic move TFs were actually sailing already and were not at the port. Adding ships and ground units to them, I would consider that gamey. If I played someone in a PBEM that did that, I would send an e-mail that said "Have a nice life."


Yep, it's important to have a feel for how your opponent feels about those things. In this case, I don't think Lowpe will mind too much if scout1 does something audacious or even "gamey" on their first turn, especially with the huge disparity in their experience levels with WitP.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 26
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 4:06:29 PM   
RADM.Yamaguchi


Posts: 765
Joined: 6/30/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Technically, those magic move TFs were actually sailing already and were not at the port. Adding ships and ground units to them, I would consider that gamey. If I played someone in a PBEM that did that, I would send an e-mail that said "Have a nice life."


Yep, it's important to have a feel for how your opponent feels about those things. In this case, I don't think Lowpe will mind too much if scout1 does something audacious or even "gamey" on their first turn, especially with the huge disparity in their experience levels with WitP.

Yes, when Lowpe mentioned Scout1 looking for help i suggested that i thought it would be important for veteran players to assist him and Lowpe agreed. i would imagine you could do anything you wanted without it being an issue but it might pay to double check.

(in reply to paradigmblue)
Post #: 27
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 5:58:16 PM   
Alamander

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some people might object to adding additional ships to the magic move task forces. In reality, they would be seen sailing towards their target and then there may have been no surprise.



Really? We are talking about a size 3 and a size 4 port at Pescadores and Samah. There are almost no ground units that can be added at Camh Ran Bay or Saigon. Takao is a larger port but has mostly support units. So what typically occurs is the loading of some support units, such as an air HQ at Takao... maybe a tank regiment at Samah. No one is going to be loading a couple of divisions, though you can, I think, load a division at Hiroshima and merge it with the DD magic move TF at Kobe. However, to do so, you would need to load the division on a bunch of garbage xAKLs, and frankly I would be delighted, as the allies, if my opponent put one of his best divisions on a bunch of speed 10 xAKLS: magic move or no. Sounds like some yummies for Boise and company.

You would quit a game because you opponent added some aviation support to an invasion or landed 1 extra tank regiment in Malaysia?

Typically what bothers allied players are deep moves that would be impossible without detection... i.e. landing at Port Moresby, for example, since allied intel and search planes would have detected such a move far in advance. What I typically do to avoid contraversy is limit my moves to what is reasonable.. i.e. no Port Moresby... no landing at Timor or Java or Fiji or some such.

< Message edited by Alamander -- 7/20/2020 6:08:04 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 28
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 6:01:45 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alamander

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some people might object to adding additional ships to the magic move task forces. In reality, they would be seen sailing towards their target and then there may have been no surprise.



Really? We are talking about a size 3 and a size 4 port at Pescadores and Samah. There are almost no ground units that can be added at Camh Ran Bay or Saigon. Takao is a larger port but so what typically occurs is the loading of some support units, such as an air HQ at Takao... maybe a tank regiment at Samah. You would quit a game because you opponent added some aviation support to an invasion or landed 1 extra tank regiment in Malaysia?


You are talking much more than that.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Alamander)
Post #: 29
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 6:11:12 PM   
Alamander

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You are talking much more than that.


Not really. There really isn't that much that can be added. You are dealing with small ports and mostly xAKs and xAKLs that have very low troop capacity and take up a lot of dock space. If you try to load undocked, you will not complete the load in time. Where you can load more, such as Saigon and Camh Ran Bay, there is not much to load... maybe an SNLF at Cam Ranh Bay if you are so inclined, but that is about it.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 30
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