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Malta - 7/23/2020 3:42:53 AM

Flaviusx

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Is it possible to land in multiple locations against Malta and launch a multihex attack on it from more than 1 beachhead?

I am currently experiencing a minor disaster trying to take it in my mirror match. Turns out that a 20 point corps with 6 AA on Malta is not so easy.

I probably just threw away an entire German infantry corps doing this, not to mention the oil, the air losses, and the amphibious points. And I even put arty on this corps to help take the place. What a fiasco. Might just have to write this off.

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 5:22:43 AM

sveint

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I don't see the point of taking Malta in WarPlan, it's way too hard.

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 5:39:30 AM

Flaviusx

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I'm used it to it being garrisoned by a 10 pt unit and that is easy enough to take. The larger sized garrison was a very unpleasant surprise.

And leaving Malta alone causes problems for Italy down the line. A tac or even strat bomber there can make it a real pain in the neck to reinforce Africa if is set to naval interdiction. So I prefer to take it out. I just hate leaving any airbases in the Med for the allies like this. Same with Crete. I want to push the Allies to Egypt and Gibraltar while dominating the Central med for interior lines.

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 7:13:50 AM

sveint

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I agree, but it's too hard to take.

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 12:20:33 PM

malkarma

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It�s not possible to make multihex attacks on Malta.
The only way is the hard way. Continuous Air pounding an Air Resupply of the invading army to get the chance to land 5 attacks in a row.

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 1:33:40 PM

kennonlightfoot

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Historically, Malta was difficult to take which is why the Axis bypassed it. The reasons it was don't translate well to the operational level of WarPlan. You can't designate a Island to be continuously patrolled by air and sea. In WarPlan it is an all or nothing patrolling.

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 2:18:06 PM

AlvaroSousa

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#1 put Italian fleet on landing site
#2 pound it with air
#3 land unit on landing site
#4 pound it some more
#5 attack
#6 attack
#7 wait till next turn
#8 attack again

Meanwhile if the Royal Navy comes
#1 pound them with air
#2 pound them with air again
#3 pound them with air once again
#4 pound them with air once more

Malta problem solves. And yes it does interfere with Axis supply just as historical estimates. All they need is a bomber there

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 2:40:18 PM

Flaviusx

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Alvaro, what happens if you do this is the landing unit just gets ground to a nub and can't take any replacements. (Nor can it evacuate.) And your air gets shot to pieces by the 6 AA. After 3 turns the corps I threw into this is down to 18 points.

Meanwhile, the Italians are going through 25 oil a turn.

If you were willing to sacrifice several corps in a row you might eventually take it. It is just not worth it.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/23/2020 2:41:22 PM >

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 3:34:15 PM

AlvaroSousa

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You resupply the unit on the beach by sea or air. Eventually that unit dies in Malta.

Remember the UK has to build a lot of stuff in 1939/1940. That is when the Axis can make good choices in which the UK can't cover everything.

If the Axis decide on a Sub/Med campaign they can overwhelm the UK in 1940. Then do a 1942 Barbarossa.

The new rule in the beta is that planes don't lose manpower in combat, only planes which is recovered at 40% of it's PP value. While land is recovered at 60%.

So it's 250 for a ground attack air unit. 6 AA whacks 3 air points not including their defense. So say 2.5 strength per air unit. If you hit it with 4 air units thats 10 planes a turn at 40% = 100 production. You just do this for 2 turns = 200.

AA cost = 90

We cancel out the land unit difference.

So it's 2:1 + ratio in production to take out Malta mathematically. You add in the land unit loss then it is less than 2:1 for the Axis.

Now no supply worries
An extra airbase in 1943 which is key.
Less spotting power for the Allies in 1943.

Seems kind of fair and this is assuming the UK stacks 6 AA there on the trade offs.

And yes of course it costs oil. But this is all part of operational planning.

< Message edited by AlvaroSousa -- 7/23/2020 3:35:44 PM >

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RE: Malta - 7/23/2020 5:29:32 PM

MagicMissile

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Dont forget that if the Allied player is lucky he might have time to withdraw the AA and even sail away with whats left of the garrison. So I think there is a good risk/reward for putting the AA on Malta.

/MM

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RE: Malta - 7/24/2020 2:08:29 PM

Flaviusx

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After 4 turns of this I've got the Malta garrison down to half size. Don't even ask me about my air losses.

I'm probably going to need to land a second corps to finish this off. I'll have to suicide the first one to make room for it. Uggh.

If I had any sense I'd have already cut my losses and abandoned this op, but in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe I can trash the AA if I get lucky and MM doesn't pull those out in time.

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RE: Malta - 7/24/2020 2:51:12 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Are you using a German Corps?

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RE: Malta - 7/24/2020 2:57:26 PM

Flaviusx

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Yes I am, and it has an arty attachment even. But I cannot do better than 1-1 odds. So it is a grind. If the corps was fresh, I'd probably be able to take Malta, but is at half strength and poor effectiveness even with constant resupply. And I cannot retreat it. I can only suicide it at this point to make room for a replacement.

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RE: Malta - 7/24/2020 10:36:39 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

And leaving Malta alone causes problems for Italy down the line. A tac or even strat bomber there can make it a real pain in the neck to reinforce Africa if is set to naval interdiction.

It doesn't have to be set to naval interdiction, it just has to be set to Full Support. I think this is a problem myself. I have an air unit set to Full Support that I only want to intercept enemy fleet movements. Knowing this my opponent makes a couple land attacks drawing my bomber in and using up all its interception attempts. He then makes an unescorted invasion in the exact location I was trying to protect. Or the opposite happens. I want my air unit to provide defensive ground support so my opponent sends in a fleet to draw my bombers fire and then does a ground attack. I would love it if an air unit set to Full Support would only perform the interception I have it set to (ie naval attack or ground attack). Sorry to hijack your thread.

My opinion on Malta is that it probably would have been tough to take if the UK had 2 full divisions there with lots of AA. If you allow multiple invasion beaches for Malta then why not the same for Gibraltar?

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 7/24/2020 10:37:16 PM >

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RE: Malta - 7/24/2020 11:49:07 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Well I got creative in the code which should make this interesting.

I pulled this adaption off Pacific.

Any single island supply source can now be blockaded by 1 naval group next to the location. Blockades prevent port supply.

So how do you stop it? having a friendly naval group there.

So in the case of Malta or Gibraltar (only 2 locations affected) this is now a fight for sea control.

In the Pacific it will be many, many, MANY little islands.

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RE: Malta - 7/25/2020 6:22:30 AM

malkarma

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Gibraltar is different from MAlta because it has access to both the Mediterranean and the Atlantic. Maybe to cut supplies there you should have to put fleets in both sides of the strait (just a thought, obviously).

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RE: Malta - 7/25/2020 5:23:10 PM

AlvaroSousa

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It works for Gib. The only thing holding the Axis from crossing it was the UK navy.

Axis fleet East side, Allied fleet West side = supply
Axis fleet online East side = not supplied

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RE: Malta - 7/26/2020 6:46:52 PM

malkarma

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It works for Gib. The only thing holding the Axis from crossing it was the UK navy.

And the gun batteries inside the rock... but I see what you are trying to achieve here.

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RE: Malta - 7/26/2020 9:40:25 PM

battlevonwar

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Malta is expensive to take for what you get...

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RE: Malta - 7/27/2020 1:41:09 AM

AlvaroSousa

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Well now you can starve it out of supply.

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RE: Malta - 7/27/2020 2:19:47 AM

battlevonwar

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sooooo hard to do unless UK is preoccupied

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Well now you can starve it out of supply.

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RE: Malta - 7/27/2020 2:42:11 AM

baloo7777

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If using the new rules, can Malta be re-supplied by air?

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RE: Malta - 7/27/2020 1:21:06 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Of course or by ship. You just need a fleet next to it to counter the effect. It forces sea control.

It also applies to completely isolated ports that aren't supply sources but are ports

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RE: Malta - 7/27/2020 2:44:41 PM

baloo7777

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Of course or by ship. You just need a fleet next to it to counter the effect. It forces sea control.

It also applies to completely isolated ports that aren't supply sources but are ports

So the Island of Rhodes can be starved by an enemy fleet and supplied by a friendly fleet, and could be re-supplied by air, correct?
This will be the same in the Pacific island outposts (WAke, Midway, Guadelcanal, et.al.)?

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RE: Malta - 7/27/2020 4:58:02 PM

kennonlightfoot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Well now you can starve it out of supply.

Under version 7?
I have had the enemy attacking Malta for almost at least six months now. They have maintained a ring of Italian ships around it with air power as well as on unit on the beach. They have never been at a supply level below "3". It looks like Malta just drops down to "Port Supply" but never runs out. The unit will eventually be killed but mainly because it's Readiness level is below 20% so it takes a little damage each turn.

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RE: Malta - 7/27/2020 7:46:00 PM

Harrybanana

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In one of my pbems I had a small corps in Malta. My opponent invaded with a 10 strength Italian Mountain corps. He placed a naval unit adjacent to Malta and bombed me for 2 or 3 turns with one or two bombers per turn. I used supply trucks each turn. He attacked me on the 3rd or 4th turn and my garrison surrendered. Didn't seem to me like he had too much trouble taking Malta.

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RE: Malta - 7/28/2020 11:41:41 AM

Flaviusx

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Thanks for the tip, Harrybanana. That might just be the trick. Don't attack until the garrison has been thoroughly tenderized. And use the Italians, not the Germans, for the landing.

I did end up taking Malta, btw. The German corps that did it is trashed and will take months to recover but at least I did not lose it. Between that and the air losses a very expensive operation. MM got his AA and corps out of there before they died. He has to be pretty happy with how this worked out.

The oil ended up not mattering, though, because Germany is topped off anyways and Italy is nearly so now. I will indeed have more oil than I know what to do with here going into Barbarossa, which is nice. I may have to park some of it with the minors in order to avoid losing the excess.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/28/2020 11:43:04 AM >

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RE: Malta - 7/28/2020 1:50:04 PM

MagicMissile

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I couldn�t let those guys die on Malta. But I did the one thing I dislike (basically the only thing I dislike with this game) I embarked them and sailed for the middle east even though sea and air is enemy controlled. I really wished there was a way for interception to take place at both embark and disembark point. Maybe in Warplan 2

. But yes happy with the outcome but it is a fairly small thing but every little bit counts.

/MM

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RE: Malta - 7/28/2020 2:51:15 PM

MorningDew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

I couldn�t let those guys die on Malta. But I did the one thing I dislike (basically the only thing I dislike with this game) I embarked them and sailed for the middle east even though sea and air is enemy controlled. I really wished there was a way for interception to take place at both embark and disembark point. Maybe in Warplan 2 . But yes happy with the outcome but it is a fairly small thing but every little bit counts.

/MM

Agree - I get the challenges of anywhere along the route, but adding point of embarkment would make a big difference.

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RE: Malta - 7/28/2020 5:31:21 PM

kennonlightfoot

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quote:

In one of my pbems I had a small corps in Malta. My opponent invaded with a 10 strength Italian Mountain corps. He placed a naval unit adjacent to Malta and bombed me for 2 or 3 turns with one or two bombers per turn. I used supply trucks each turn. He attacked me on the 3rd or 4th turn and my garrison surrendered. Didn't seem to me like he had too much trouble taking Malta.

I usually put max AA in Malta and a full strength Corps. This will make air attacks extremely expensive. If they land a unit I give it an Specialty bonus, either Elite or Tank Destroyer. Then supply trucks can be used to undo bad turns. Maybe in 42 or 43 the German armor will be powerful enough to crush it but I haven't had this happen yet.

I haven't verified it works for a while but if putting on a transport and sailing away if things get bad still works it is a very low risk use of a Corps.

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