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Village pulling all logistic points - 7/25/2020 7:08:07 PM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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The small village of Moonshelf (15k pop) is pulling 657 logistics points. I can't figure out what is going on. That hex has only has for assets a private transport I hub and hunting I club. Whatever is going on, it's soaking up all my logistic capacity in the region leaving my fighting forces crippled for supply.

Any thoughts what I might look into for reasons this is happening?

Thanks,
-Mark R.

(We're playing 1.04 beta-7)

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/25/2020 7:49:43 PM

zgrssd

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What about troops behind the city?
Any running contruction project?
Did a change of zone borders change what assets it is responsible for?
What about last turn consumption/deliveries?

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/25/2020 7:51:13 PM >

(in reply to mroyer)

Post #: 2

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 5:53:59 AM

Berks

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/18/2020
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Hi Mark,

You have pull points for units (green bar) and city (blue bar) in this hex.

If you go into traffic signs mode, you can see how many pull points are for the city, and how many are for your forces.

I'm not sure what a hunting I club is, but it could be producing public food which is being shipped back to SHQ? You can check the items tab to see what was produced in the zone. Anything produced here would have to be shipped back to the SHQ.

Your forces may have used a lot of fuel or ammo in the last turn, so this turn was used to re-supply them. Check the individual units supply tabs (click on the units, then the oil barrel icon on the bottom panel) to see what was requested and what was sent to the unit. If any units received reinforcements, this will also use a lot of logistical points.

Hope this gives you a good starting point to try and find the problem.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 3

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 2:18:36 PM

mroyer

Posts: 914
Joined: 3/6/2016
Status: offline

At the risk of compromising national security (this is a PBEM game), below is top-secret, need-to-know information.

But seriously, in the interest of learning it's worth divulging ;)

quote:

What about troops behind the city?

Not sure what what you mean by "behind the city". There is a unit stationed in Moonshelf that is starving (300 hunger) - black box to lower left of counter.

quote:

Any running contruction project?

Not in Moonshelf itself. It seems that everything (units, construction projects) that is not in Moonshelf is being supplied from my other city far to the south.

quote:

Did a change of zone borders change what assets it is responsible for?

I don't think so - it's a simple situation militarily; just trying to settle the frontier of free-folk mauraders. The borders probably only changed a hex or so.

quote:

What about last turn consumption/deliveries?

Similar to this turn, IIRC. This has been going on for a few turns, each time the pull in Moonshelf getting larger. I can't identify what is pulling.

quote:

You have pull points for units (green bar) and city (blue bar) in this hex.

Interesting! I hadn't even noticed the bars. Green->units, blue->city? What is the red bar I see further south along the road?

Red->construction?
Is there a fourth color that stands for something else?

quote:

If you go into traffic signs mode, you can see how many pull points are for the city, and how many are for your forces.

Traffic signs pic below. The city itself is using the vast majority of pull points.

quote:

I'm not sure what a hunting I club is, but it could be producing public food which is being shipped back to SHQ? You can check the items tab to see what was produced in the zone. Anything produced here would have to be shipped back to the SHQ.

I don't think anything is being shipped to the SHQ.

quote:

Your forces may have used a lot of fuel or ammo in the last turn, so this turn was used to re-supply them. Check the individual units supply tabs (click on the units, then the oil barrel icon on the bottom panel) to see what was requested and what was sent to the unit. If any units received reinforcements, this will also use a lot of logistical points.

We did have some skirmishes against the free-folk.

quote:

Hope this gives you a good starting point to try and find the problem.

Thanks to both of you for suggestions! Hopefully I can work through and understand this and it can help others with similar situations too.

Thanks again,
-Mark R.

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 2:19:02 PM

mroyer

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< Message edited by mroyer -- 7/26/2020 2:20:34 PM >

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 2:19:32 PM

mroyer

Posts: 914
Joined: 3/6/2016
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...

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< Message edited by mroyer -- 7/26/2020 2:21:11 PM >

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 2:39:16 PM

Falke

Posts: 179
Joined: 8/13/2004
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The pull size is due to all the stocks that are building up in the city. Somewhere else you have a bottleneck that is preventing these from being sent. Check the bottleneck view along the whole route to your SHQ

The red tab is for asset pulls

(in reply to mroyer)

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 4:55:56 PM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke

The pull size is due to all the stocks that are building up in the city. Somewhere else you have a bottleneck that is preventing these from being sent. Check the bottleneck view along the whole route to your SHQ

The red tab is for asset pulls

I, of course, looked for bottleneck issues. Could it simply be that the SHQ is too far away in another zone to the south? Would that actually cause Moonshelf to starve it's own militia?

-Mark R.

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 5:18:12 PM

Falke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer

Would that actually cause Moonshelf to starve it's own militia?

Yes. While the city produces what the Militia needs, it has to be distributed through the SHQ.

You should nationalize the Truckstop, the additional LIS and AP thereof could resolve your issue

(in reply to mroyer)

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/26/2020 5:21:40 PM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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quote:

Yes. While the city produces what the Militia needs, it has to be distributed through the SHQ.
You should nationalize the Truckstop, the additional LIS and AP thereof could resolve your issue

Well... well.. WELL! I would never have come to that conclusion on my own. I will try to fix it from that angle then to see if it indeed helps.

Thanks,
-Mark R.

< Message edited by mroyer -- 7/26/2020 5:22:30 PM >

(in reply to Falke)

Post #: 10

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 7/27/2020 1:52:59 AM

Berks

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Joined: 7/18/2020
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Hi Mark,

You are losing 50% of your truck points in Moonshine because you don't have a Governor!!! (Hover over the asset and the tooltip should confirm this)

From the manual, 5.3.7 - P174:

Absence of a Governor
Not having a Governor will cause some administrative chaos and
consequently a -50% penalty on production of Public Assets. However, it
will not impact the Private Economy.

Put a leader in there ASAP, even a capacity I dud. Fire an advisor or hire a leader if you don't have any leaders left.

I have never seen a Hunting I building before (then again I have never had a planet which could support anything other than domed farming)

I did not know the Militia supplies needed to go through SHQ first, thank you Falke

But this is definitely Mark's issue here, all the militia supplies getting stuck.

The bars above the pull points are:

Red - Asset (100 pull points per level for public asset, 50 per level for private)
Green - Units
Blue - City
Black - Pull points (ones you have assigned manually to hex)

Can you put a traffic stop to prevent logistics going southwest, or is this supplying other cities, or units further away? This would help with supplies going north.

I think you also need to bridge the gap between the 2 cities, either another Truck Station, or Sealed Roads, or ideally a Rail Station + Railhead, depending on what you can afford.

(in reply to mroyer)

Post #: 11

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/1/2020 1:57:34 PM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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Update
We are now at round 19, perhaps 4 to 6 rounds after my original posts above.
The image shows the updated situation.

I have added a governor to Moonshelf (I was drastically short of leaders back then, but have finally got that under better control).

I have nationalized the Moonshelf Truck Hub I.

I have improved the logistical connection between my capital (and SHQ off image to the south) and Moonshelf (a former minor nation that has been incorporated) by:
(A) placing a supply base and truck station at arrow 4 (probably didn't need both, but I was shotgunning the issue)
(B) building supply bases at arrows 3 and 2 (arrow 3 will probably come online next round)

Also...
I tried placing a full block of pull points Moonshelf (arrow 1) for a couple rounds, but that seemed to have no effect

I can't tell if placing a "additional" custom pull point of 100 on Moonshelf has any effect

I meant to place "overrule" custom pull point of 100 (uurgh) - will try that next round

It seems the net affect of all this effort might be headed slightly in the correct direction. This is the first round in a while Moonshelf militia in their home town are not fully starving - just partially.

Even if the situation in Moonshelf continues to improve (and I'm not sure it will) I have learned nothing - if the situation occurs again I will be equally confused about how to correct it.

I have no idea why the pull points in the small village of Moonshelf would spiral out of control like they did (980 pull points!! in a village of about 15k people and few significant assets.)

I have no idea why Moonshelf was doing fine on it's own as a minor, fine as a client state of mine, but then totally collapsed after being incorporated. That seems very odd if it's intentional by game design.

Another possibility is this is a bug in the 1.04-beta7 that we're using - but I can't figure it out well enough to decide and report.

This is an awesome, addictive game - but its extremely difficult to figure out how to play. If it weren't so freaking interesting and fun, I'd have quit a long time ago. Its becoming a true love-hate relationship!!

-Mark R.

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< Message edited by mroyer -- 8/1/2020 2:14:40 PM >

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/1/2020 2:17:18 PM

demiare

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Joined: 6/20/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
I have no idea why Moonshelf was doing fine on it's own as a minor, fine as a client state of mine, but then totally collapsed after being incorporated. That seems very odd if it's intentional by game design.

Minors aren't following most of game rules (for example - logistics), even majors are ignoring some of them (while they're using it, they get logistic points & dirt roads for free).

(in reply to mroyer)

Post #: 13

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/1/2020 5:03:14 PM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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quote:

Minors aren't following most of game rules (for example - logistics), even majors are ignoring some of them (while they're using it, they get logistic points & dirt roads for free).

Yeah, I recall reading that in the manual, but I guess I didn't understand the repercussions in this context.

Would it be good if the game were changed so that militia used their respective zone cities as pseudo-SHQ's?
Opinions?

What I'm really perplexed over, however, is why the pull points in the Moonshelf city hex is so high - all the other issues notwithstanding.

-Mark R.

(in reply to demiare)

Post #: 14

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/1/2020 5:20:49 PM

demiare

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Joined: 6/20/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
Would it be good if the game were changed so that militia used their respective zone cities as pseudo-SHQ's?
Opinions?

No reason to do so. Militia is useless in combat past first turns and for scouting your suggestion change nothing. Hell, you need to keep quite large militia force in city to deal with rebels at turn of their spawn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
What I'm really perplexed over, however, is why the pull points in the Moonshelf city hex is so high - all the other issues notwithstanding.

For first turn after joining ~600 pull is reasonable. ~500 food to place in stockpile + 80 food for workers + food for militia. Then it should became much less.

(in reply to mroyer)

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RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/2/2020 12:11:29 AM

Berks

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Hi Mark,

Demi's correct - the newly-incorporated city needs to move food from zone stockpile to SHQ.

Your fixes look OK for the short term.

I thought your capital was SW, but that's just a truck stop. Does your capital just have a Truck Station I?
Might be worth upgrading that as well. Remember the capital needs to ship Logistics in all directions, and both in and out. You can highlight SHQ and select the supplies button to see how many LP are being used on each function.

Ideally, you could put a Rail Station in your capital and run a rail to a Railhead in Moonshine, although it might not be possible due to available metal/IP.

You could also fix the issue more permanently by putting a new SHQ in Moonshine, then the food would not need to be moved. This is a bit tricky to explain but you basically assign the nearby Militia to SHQ 2 and they are fed locally. It would cost you 2 PP a turn and require you to micromanage moving things like power, metal and IP between both SHQ's.

Probably best to avoid the SHQ option if you aren't sure.

(in reply to demiare)

Post #: 16

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/2/2020 12:32:00 AM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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Thanks Gentlemen - I think it's slowly sinking in. I know a lot of this was said earlier in this thread but it's taking first hand experience to see how it all fits together. I probably have a lot further to go, experience wise before I get the big picture

.

Lesson learned: don't incorporate a client before you have a good logistic connection at least to it's border!!!
(I hope that is the correct lesson here

)

-Mark R.

(in reply to Berks)

Post #: 17

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/2/2020 12:34:27 AM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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quote:

... run a rail to a Railhead in Moonshine ...

The happiness of the Moonshelf population drops another 25 percent as continued slights are issued from the capital's propaganda mill...

-Mark R.

< Message edited by mroyer -- 8/2/2020 12:36:02 AM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Village pulling all logistic points - 8/2/2020 12:37:37 AM

Berks

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Hi Mark,

I think practical examples are great for everyone to learn from. I learned a lot from this thread as well.

I have more than my share of failed logistic networks built before it all started to click!

At least I could learn against AI and not under the pressure of a multiplayer game!!

Good luck with the game

(in reply to mroyer)

Post #: 19