Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

You don’t have to read my mind. I did spell it out. You have chosen to ignore what you don’t like as usual.

In post 527 you tried to make the point (using a game map) that:

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Note the terrain is much tougher than Spain and no better than Turkey. Claims that the Germans have never faced anything but flat tank country are false.

In Post 529 I said I’d never made the point about flat tank country, ...

But others did.

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but did make the following pertinent observation:

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As has been said before, look at the short distance that the Axis troops needed to travel - remember the Germans attacked the poor Yugoslavs from Germany, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria, while the Italians came at the Yugoslavs from Italy and Albania. They were almost completely surrounded. It was not the one axis of attack that confronts the Germans in Spain..... There were no mountains or hills that blocked the path to the capital from the north either.

Once again, you’ve been shown to be wrong so you, not very subtly, simply ignored Yugoslavia and moved onto Greece in post 555:

You're so desperate to find some sort of error in my posts that you resort to inventing them. The above is a straw man. I've never said anything contrary to the above. All I said was that the terrain in Yugoslavia and Greece was worse than Spain and at least equal to Turkey. And, the Yugoslavia attackers had to cross lots of Yugoslavia to get to Greece.

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I responded in Post 560 that you were wrong about Greece too, and quoted from the Centre of Military History – United States Army’s The German Campaign in the Balkans. This made clear:

Whereas an invader thrusting from Albania can be stopped with relatively small forces in the high Pindus Mountains, the northeastern part of the country is difficult to defend against an attack from the north.

That only concerns the area east of Salonika - which the Greeks were fools to try to defend. The Germans have to get to Athens to force Greek surrender.

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So your thinking that “Hills are all the way in Greece”

I was specifically referring to Athens.

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But furthermore, that extract from the US military study went further. It clearly stated:

Eastern Macedonia and western Thrace are narrow strips of land that can be cut off from the rest of Greece by an advance following the course of the Vardar River. Salonika, the only efficient port in northern Greece, is situated within this vulnerable area. The supply system of the Greek forces fighting in Albania was based on Salonika. The capture of the port would cut their supply lines and isolate them in their exposed positions.

How did you respond?

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They still could have been supplied through Athens.

How arrogant is that? Even the game map you provided shows no rail or road link but you simply ignore this and blandly state the opposite of what a military study concluded.

Again, that is if they had deployed in the interior, instead of at their frontier.

What can't be escaped is that the terrain in Yugoslavia and Greece is worse than the terrain in Spain and at least equal to the terrain in Turkey.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

- Churchill can't do anything because he's seen a barge or two in Ostend and a Bf-109 fly within 5 miles of the English coast so automatically puts on his tin hat and cowers under the table

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- Stalin can't do anything because.... er he didn't in real life, so no matter what happens in your scenario and no matter how problematical for the Soviets, he couldn't possibly do anything different i.e. nothing

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BUT conveniently:

- Goering becomes a level-headed tactical genius not at all interested in making the Luftwaffe look more important than the army or navy - and in his over eagerness to do that, making some really dumbarse moves

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- Mussolini stops making gonorrhoea-inspired dumb moves, he stops having any thoughts for Italy and suddenly subordinates his country, his army and everything to the Germans

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- Tojo decides acting in Japan's interest is boring and also becomes a simple extension of Germany and will do what Germany needs it to do.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Nevertheless, their options, if they reach that conclusion, don't seem to be very significant: Put some part of their very limited ground forces back into a continental ground war maelstrom with the Germans.

I do think it's going to be very hard for the British to leap to the conclusion that no invasion is coming regardless of what they feel is missing that may seem to them to be essential prep for such an invasion. There are simply too many options for how such an invasion could be prosecuted.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Goring is not the Supreme Commander. Hitler is.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would he launch a strategic bombing campaign if they've decided not to make a cross-channel attempt?

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Again, it's clear that Mussolini can be enticed by German plans (see Barbarossa). The German plans for the Med will be just such.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Again, it's the threat of an unencumbered Soviet Union that will impact just what Japan's "interests" are.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

As I said, if Stalin initiates the war, it's a very different war than historical. SPI calls it "Limited War". And, by limited, they especially mean production. Limited War production is only marginally greater than peacetime production. And the bad news is that they don't get to go to Total War until they've lost three production centers. So, they can be fatally compromised before that happens. So, either way Stalin turns, it's good for the Axis.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Finally, let's be clear that Greece and Yugoslavia (not to mention Norway) did include extensive fighting in hills, regardless of what distances those fights crossed, or that some fighting may have been in non-hill terrain. Any claim that the Germans never faced the terrain of Spain or Turkey are false.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I haven’t said what the Germans would do would be a strategic bombing campaign. I said that sitting in Northern France in July 1940 is simply unbelievable in my opinion and, given the situation, given the characters involved, the Germans just wouldn’t do that. I suspect the most likely option is that the tactics employed to beat Fighter Command in real life would be the tactics employed here. Why? Because this is about Goering defeating Fighter Command and not about Sea Lion. I suspect as per real life the bombing of cities may come later – but it wouldn’t be the initial plan.

So they would do something and they would take the fight to Fighter Command because they believed they were almost finished anyway. Moreover, Goering didn’t believe in Sea Lion and believed that the defeat of Fighter Command would see Britain come to the peace table. Add to this that Hitler likely didn’t really believe in the project as it was too risky for his liking.

So he’s got Goering constantly in his ear about what the Luftwaffe can do and these boasts actually tell Hitler what he wants to hear.

I say yet again, the Battle of Britain was not something foisted upon Goering because of Sea Lion. Goering believed the hype, he believed his own press and he believed the dodgy intelligence. Fighter Command was there for the taking and that is why a Battle of Britain type scenario would have happened even with a Med first strategy.

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Mussolini in the summer of 1941 is a completely different animal (in terms of his relationship with Hitler) than in 1940. There are two important reasons why Hitler was keen to offer troops to Germany for Barbarossa:

- He was no friend of Communism and the Soviet Union was his enemy (although interestingly this move did not help his popularity in Italy). This is no different from him offering aircraft for the Battle of Britain.

- But the main reason, the absolutely key reason, is that by the summer of 1941 North Africa had happened, Taranto and Matapan had happened, Greece had happened. Here was a man who needed some brownie points, he needed to ingratiate himself with Hitler. After the first year of Italy’s war, the balance sheet was in massive deficit and Mussolini was under no illusions what Italy could or couldn’t do. That is NOT the case in June 1940 when he was constantly bending Graziani’s ear to attack Egypt. And even after this debacle, he launched an invasion of Greece with no planning (iirc the air force and navy weren’t even told about the operation with two weeks before its start!!).

In June 1940 he thought the war was over and he needed to stake his claim. He ordered an attack on the French and then the British. At that time Mussolini and Italy were not mere extensions of Nazi Germany. To suggest they were is, in my opinion, wrong.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I haven’t said what the Germans would do would be a strategic bombing campaign. I said that sitting in Northern France in July 1940 is simply unbelievable in my opinion and, given the situation, given the characters involved, the Germans just wouldn’t do that. I suspect the most likely option is that the tactics employed to beat Fighter Command in real life would be the tactics employed here. Why? Because this is about Goering defeating Fighter Command and not about Sea Lion. I suspect as per real life the bombing of cities may come later – but it wouldn’t be the initial plan.

So they would do something and they would take the fight to Fighter Command because they believed they were almost finished anyway. Moreover, Goering didn’t believe in Sea Lion and believed that the defeat of Fighter Command would see Britain come to the peace table. Add to this that Hitler likely didn’t really believe in the project as it was too risky for his liking.

So he’s got Goering constantly in his ear about what the Luftwaffe can do and these boasts actually tell Hitler what he wants to hear.

I say yet again, the Battle of Britain was not something foisted upon Goering because of Sea Lion. Goering believed the hype, he believed his own press and he believed the dodgy intelligence. Fighter Command was there for the taking and that is why a Battle of Britain type scenario would have happened even with a Med first strategy.

This is nonsense. The whole point of the BoB was to secure Air Superiority over the Channel for an invasion. They're not doing the invasion. Why would they do the BoB? - especially with the air force that they had?

With an invasion planned, the BoB was a logical step. Without it, it's madness. You're saying Goring is insane and he will take nonsensical steps regardless of circumstances. I think that's wishful thinking on your part.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Zovs

I am just learning MWIF and it seems like a great game. Between MWIF and CWIE2 I may be able answer some questions, which I don’t know, lol.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

This is nonsense. The whole point of the BoB was to secure Air Superiority over the Channel for an invasion. They're not doing the invasion. Why would they do the BoB? - especially with the air force that they had?

With an invasion planned, the BoB was a logical step. Without it, it's madness. You're saying Goring is insane and he will take nonsensical steps regardless of circumstances. I think that's wishful thinking on your part.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

And add that part of the Luftwaffe is needed for Spain. So they would have had to have launched the BoB with less than the full Luftwaffe.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Zovs

The main point being:

However, there still remains the British Navy. At that time the British Navy was supreme on the sea. There were no conceivable challenges from any other European power. Moreover, everything which has survived to this day concerning the possible use of the Navy shows that the British government fully intended to, if necessary, sacrifice the British Navy in the Channel in order to stop the Germans from instituting an invasion. No probable scenario can be pictured in which the British Navy fails to intervene. However, if the British Navy were to intervene, Seelowe would not be a game. It would merely be a futile exercise of how to exterminate troops on the beach. There is little doubt that the British Navy could have successfully steamed into the Channel, despite heavy losses by 1940 standards, and bombarded the troops on the beaches. Moreover, they would have been able to completely wreck the irreplaceable German invasion fleet. Not only would the German invasion of England have been turned back, but it would have been a crippling blow to the internal European economy, and would have affected the entire German production for the remainder of the year. It could well have shortened the war by a year or two. Thus, it became necessary to remove the British Navy from the game, in order to make it a game.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Today is Battle of Britain Day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain_Day

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

a) The Luftwaffe was vastly superior in numbers compared to the RAF

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b) The Luftwaffe believed (and their own ahem..'intelligence' confirmed) that the RAF was on its last legs. The full Luftwaffe wasn't even required.
c) Goering thought he would smash the RAF in a matter of weeks.

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e) The need to save bombers for Gibraltar is no different to the real life requirement to keep bombers for the invasion of Britain, so you can't use that argument.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Today is Battle of Britain Day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain_Day

warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Zovs

Some more misinformation that Bob Cross (Curtis Lemay) has spread about board war game designers (read some of the nonsense above), is proven false by James F. Dunningan himself in 1974 for the game Seelowe.


The two most striking characteristics of Seelowe are the absence of the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force. As most people are aware, Britain, in effect, won the Battle of Britain in the skies during early September, and the navy never had to enter in order to thwart a German invasion. This game posits two elements in a new scenario, one of them with a high degree of possibility, the other almost impossible to consider or to have actually occurred.

First, the German Air Force kept up its bombardment of the air bases during early September rather than switch in revenge to attacks upon British cities. At the rate of loss that the British were suffering in the first week of September, they would have been whittled down to an almost insignificant force by September 20th. In point of fact, British contingency plans (that have survived to this day) demonstrate that they planned on pulling back their Air Force after falling below a certain critical point, and not attempting to defend Southern England, but only England north of roughly the Thames-Bristol line. In the game, this is assumed to have happened.

However, there still remains the British Navy. At that time the British Navy was supreme on the sea. There were no conceivable challenges from any other European power. Moreover, everything which has survived to this day concerning the possible use of the Navy shows that the British government fully intended to, if necessary, sacrifice the British Navy in the Channel in order to stop the Germans from instituting an invasion. No probable scenario can be pictured in which the British Navy fails to intervene. However, if the British Navy were to intervene, Seelowe would not be a game. It would merely be a futile exercise of how to exterminate troops on the beach. There is little doubt that the British Navy could have successfully steamed into the Channel, despite heavy losses by 1940 standards, and bombarded the troops on the beaches. Moreover, they would have been able to completely wreck the irreplaceable German invasion fleet. Not only would the German invasion of England have been turned back, but it would have been a crippling blow to the internal European economy, and would have affected the entire German production for the remainder of the year. It could well have shortened the war by a year or two. Thus, it became necessary to remove the British Navy from the game, in order to make it a game.

There are few rather unlikely scenarios which would allow some rationalization of this move. One of these would be that Churchill was not Prime Minister at this time. Certain other men in England at the time, who had previously held a high office, proposed that the British Navy, in order to safe-guard it and to continue to fight over seas, be removed to Canada. Authors of fictional accounts relate other possible scenarios, such as the British fleet removing itself in pursing various German squadrons left out into the Atlantic. These are found to be incomplete since the destroyers locally based would have probably proved sufficient to defeat any invasion. The Germans undoubtedly could have gotten the troops ashore. It was their survival that was in doubt.

...

The Germans had concentrated between 50 and 80% of the available sea transport in Occupied Europe at that time for the invasion. Even so, the ere capable only of landing two fully-equipped divisions on the first day. Moreover, much of this fragile transport was essentially one-way. Another large section of transport would have to be immediately returned to the civilian sector of the economy so that the home front would not fall apart due to the lack of mobility. These factors, combined with the probable losses on the beaches, drastically reduced the German ability to put troops and supplies ashore after the first day.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: Zovs

Not only would the German invasion of England have been turned back, but it would have been a crippling blow to the internal European economy, and would have affected the entire German production for the remainder of the year.

Moreover, much of this fragile transport was essentially one-way. Another large section of transport would have to be immediately returned to the civilian sector of the economy so that the home front would not fall apart due to the lack of mobility.

And I'd say that Dunnigan sounds pretty knowledgeable above. Way beyond the amateurs on this board.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Not in terms of four-engine, heavily defended bombers. Not in terms of long range escorts vs. interceptors.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Again, adopting a Med strategy nixes any need for a BoB. Any air reckoning will happen over the Med - more favorably for the Axis.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The invasion of Britain wouldn't happen till after the BoB was successful.....

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: Zovs

Not only would the German invasion of England have been turned back, but it would have been a crippling blow to the internal European economy, and would have affected the entire German production for the remainder of the year.

Moreover, much of this fragile transport was essentially one-way. Another large section of transport would have to be immediately returned to the civilian sector of the economy so that the home front would not fall apart due to the lack of mobility.

And I'd say that Dunnigan sounds pretty knowledgeable above. Way beyond the amateurs on this board.

warspite1

....and thank you for proving my point. Even when the war game designers that you set so much store by, support what I've said and what you've ignored, you won't budge from your Dream Axis Fanbois Scenario.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Did you just say "four-engined heavily defended bombers"? I think you actually just said "four-engined (whether heavily defended or otherwise is immaterial) bombers" I can't wait for the explanation of this.

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Did you just say "Not in terms of long range escorts vs. interceptors". You know the Battle of Britain was real life yes? You know it wasn't just something that happened in a war game or a fictional film? Do you actually know anything about World War II? Wow....

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So let's get this right. According to you, the barges tied up in port and the vast bulk of the Luftwaffe (not required in Spain) but doing nothing in Northern France, have WSC pressing the panic button. INVASION!!!! Call the militia!!!! - such that the British won't be able to react to the Med War....

... and at the same time you've said the 'air reckoning will happen over the Med'....

... but how, when according to your confused logic, there will be no air reckoning because the German 'demonstration' in Northern France will mean Churchill not sending any reinforcements to said Med theatre.

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But it's the bit in bold that is my favourite. I mean that just spells out everything anyone needs to know about you and your Dream Axis Fanbois Scenario. For the billionth time, it is what Goering believed at the time that is important - not what you know 80 years later. Goering 'knew' fighter command was finished, so NO he wouldn't be thinking in terms of his Luftwaffe, that had swept all before them, losing an air war over Britain. It is you with your hindsight that are playing that stupid game.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

So I am getting lost with your twisting and turning so can you just clarify please?

You say that Goering won't act in line with his historical character and won't attack Britain (which will be left totally alone to recover in peace) despite knowing in his own mind he can finish Fighter Command in weeks - and in doing so there is no need for a Sea Lion that only factions of the army even believe in anyway?

BUT

The Germans, although not interested in Sea Lion WILL remove their barges to Northern France (as part of a cunning deception plan) to make the British think there will be an invasion. In so doing they do serious damage to their own economy.

But they don't even have to do this because, according to you, if they don't make the British think there will be an invasion there is more chance of the British sending small scale reinforcements piecemeal to the Med which will be beaten more easily than attacking Britain..... so why exactly are they doing this anyway?

So they are at war with Britain, they need to smash Britain's ability to wage war, but are instead, leaving Britain untouched, while at the same time hurting their own economy and not defeating British forces in any great number.....

And I won't even go over the arguments again about Spain/Gibraltar at this point.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think you are really on top of your thinking here are you?

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: Zovs

Not only would the German invasion of England have been turned back, but it would have been a crippling blow to the internal European economy, and would have affected the entire German production for the remainder of the year.

Moreover, much of this fragile transport was essentially one-way. Another large section of transport would have to be immediately returned to the civilian sector of the economy so that the home front would not fall apart due to the lack of mobility.

And I'd say that Dunnigan sounds pretty knowledgeable above. Way beyond the amateurs on this board.

warspite1

....and thank you for proving my point. Even when the war game designers that you set so much store by, support what I've said and what you've ignored, you won't budge from your Dream Axis Fanbois Scenario.

Again, if you have a point SPELL IT OUT!! I can't read your mind.

How does the use of barges EXACTLY as they were used historically, result in any impact beyond what occurred historically?!!

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Did you just say "four-engined heavily defended bombers"? I think you actually just said "four-engined (whether heavily defended or otherwise is immaterial) bombers" I can't wait for the explanation of this.

If the Germans had fleets of four-engined heavily defended bombers - like the Lancaster - please let me know.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Are you saying the Germans had effective long range escorts?!!

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That would only last, assuming it worked, for the duration of the Spain operation. There will be close to two years before Barbarossa, wherein the Med will be the main theater.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

But it's the bit in bold that is my favourite. I mean that just spells out everything anyone needs to know about you and your Dream Axis Fanbois Scenario. For the billionth time, it is what Goering believed at the time that is important - not what you know 80 years later. Goering 'knew' fighter command was finished, so NO he wouldn't be thinking in terms of his Luftwaffe, that had swept all before them, losing an air war over Britain. It is you with your hindsight that are playing that stupid game.

As an aside: I'm not making personal comments about you. Can you just stick to the facts? If they were really on your side you wouldn't have to be so vile.

And, again, the rationale for the BoB was for a cross-channel invasion. That's not happening. And if Goring wants a showdown with the RAF he can still have it, but far better for it to occur in the Med.

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And, again, the rationale for the BoB was for a cross-channel invasion.

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They could have supplied them via Athens.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

So I am getting lost with your twisting and turning so can you just clarify please?

You say that Goering won't act in line with his historical character and won't attack Britain (which will be left totally alone to recover in peace) despite knowing in his own mind he can finish Fighter Command in weeks - and in doing so there is no need for a Sea Lion that only factions of the army even believe in anyway?

BUT

The Germans, although not interested in Sea Lion WILL remove their barges to Northern France (as part of a cunning deception plan) to make the British think there will be an invasion. In so doing they do serious damage to their own economy.

But they don't even have to do this because, according to you, if they don't make the British think there will be an invasion there is more chance of the British sending small scale reinforcements piecemeal to the Med which will be beaten more easily than attacking Britain..... so why exactly are they doing this anyway?

So they are at war with Britain, they need to smash Britain's ability to wage war, but are instead, leaving Britain untouched, while at the same time hurting their own economy and not defeating British forces in any great number.....

And I won't even go over the arguments again about Spain/Gibraltar at this point.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think you are really on top of your thinking here are you?

They have adopted a Med strategy. That changes everything post France.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805