Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact.

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Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity.

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Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

What the hell has the Lancaster bomber - or any 4-engined bomber - got to do with the RAF in 1940????

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

NO!!!!!!!!! I am saying that Goering believed he had what was needed in July 1940 to defeat the RAF - and what Goering believed is what is important. You did this with the Japan scenario, constantly asking what I would do or what I think. Who cares what I would do or what I think, it is irrelevant. With the weaponry at his disposal, Goering believed he could destroy the RAF in weeks (in fact he told Hitler he just needed 4 days of clear weather!!. The fact that we know otherwise 80 years later is simply not of any relevance to what the German High Command were thinking or thought they knew in the summer of 1940.

The Me-110 - the Zerstorer - was his favourite aircraft it was something of a shock when the truth about its performance became evident.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

What was vile or personal about that? The way you have approached this 'staff study' is nothing more than an Dream Axis Fanoboi Scenario. That is not rude - it is certainly not vile.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except it doesn't. Instead of simply repeating the same one-liners why not spend some time writing out - as I've tried to do - a timeline of events as you see it? What conversations are being had when and by who, how is all this developing amongst the competing personalities, the Spanish, the French, the Italians?

Your thinking doesn't seem to allow for the fact that no one in 1940 knew what was going to happen - they don't have the knowledge we do. As a result events are dynamic, they are fluid. For example we know what Franco will say to a German request to enter the war. But Hitler doesn't. But because you know, you simply ignore what, logically would have happened in the summer to get to a point where Hitler declares war on Spain (with all that means). You think you can just go from victory in France to attacking Spain. Sorry, life doesn't work like that and its that sort of thing that makes me call this a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario.

Surely, you must understand what invading Spain means for Germany from every possible viewpoint - military, economic, political? This is huge. Yet you treat it as nothing. You are actually putting forward the case (with your proposed timetable) that Hitler goes straight from defeat of France to attacking Spain. No preliminaries, no discussions, nothing.

You don't want me to conclude that this is just a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario? Right, okay, put some effort into it. Give an outline timetable and why you think the action being taken at each point is reasonable.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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They could have supplied them via Athens.

And in saying this you provide no proof, no counter argument to support what you say, just that one single sentence. That is arrogant in the extreme. I produce a comment from a US military study and you provide.... well you don't even provide one of your game maps - because if you recall correctly, there was no road or rail link from Athens to the Albanian front. You just effectively simply state that what Curtis Lemay says is fact - no evidence, proof or justification required.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact.

The barges were used in this fashion HISTORICALLY!! How could that cause any more impact than occurred historically??

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In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact.

Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Not if it deceives the British about the invasion threat. That facilitates the Spanish operation.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Huh? No. Once Spain is out of the way, the deception is unnecessary.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

What the hell has the Lancaster bomber - or any 4-engined bomber - got to do with the RAF in 1940????

It has nothing to do with the RAF in 1940. Where did I say it did? The British would not be the ones carrying out a strategic bombing campaign. The Germans would be.

The Germans are the ones that need a strategic bomber and a long-range escort. They don't have either.

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And for the avoidance of doubt just in case you try and deflect by saying I am not making my point clear - here is the conversation in which we were talking about the respective fleets in the summer of 1940:

w1: The Luftwaffe was vastly superior in numbers compared to the RAF
CL: Not in terms of four-engine, heavily defended bombers.
w1: Did you just say "four-engined heavily defended bombers"? I can't wait for the explanation of this.
CL: If the Germans had fleets of four-engined heavily defended bombers - like the Lancaster - please let me know.

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NO!!!!!!!!! I am saying that Goering believed he had what was needed in July 1940 to defeat the RAF - and what Goering believed is what is important. You did this with the Japan scenario, constantly asking what I would do or what I think. Who cares what I would do or what I think, it is irrelevant. With the weaponry at his disposal, Goering believed he could destroy the RAF in weeks (in fact he told Hitler he just needed 4 days of clear weather!!. The fact that we know otherwise 80 years later is simply not of any relevance to what the German High Command were thinking or thought they knew in the summer of 1940.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Again, with the adoption of a Med strategy, the rationale for a BoB, especially with no cross-channel invasion, is no longer there. A significant fraction of the Luftwaffe is needed for Spain. The Med is going to be a major theater and therefore a better place to engage the RAF, because of Axis interior lines.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

What was vile or personal about that? The way you have approached this 'staff study' is nothing more than an Dream Axis Fanoboi Scenario. That is not rude - it is certainly not vile.

Yes it is. You're not talking about the issue. You're talking about me. Stick to the facts and do not resort to personal comments.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except it doesn't. Instead of simply repeating the same one-liners why not spend some time writing out - as I've tried to do - a timeline of events as you see it? What conversations are being had when and by who, how is all this developing amongst the competing personalities, the Spanish, the French, the Italians?

Your thinking doesn't seem to allow for the fact that no one in 1940 knew what was going to happen - they don't have the knowledge we do. As a result events are dynamic, they are fluid. For example we know what Franco will say to a German request to enter the war. But Hitler doesn't. But because you know, you simply ignore what, logically would have happened in the summer to get to a point where Hitler declares war on Spain (with all that means). You think you can just go from victory in France to attacking Spain. Sorry, life doesn't work like that and its that sort of thing that makes me call this a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario.

Surely, you must understand what invading Spain means for Germany from every possible viewpoint - military, economic, political? This is huge. Yet you treat it as nothing. You are actually putting forward the case (with your proposed timetable) that Hitler goes straight from defeat of France to attacking Spain. No preliminaries, no discussions, nothing.

You don't want me to conclude that this is just a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario? Right, okay, put some effort into it. Give an outline timetable and why you think the action being taken at each point is reasonable.

The decision to go to a Med strategy is made from the get-go, as I've already said. It only requires that the Germans realize that the Med will be a major theater and secure overland supply lines will be necessary to succeed there.

Obviously, they wouldn't wait till July 1940 to sort out with Franco whether he would join up or not - that would have been cleared up well in advance.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

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They could have supplied them via Athens.

And in saying this you provide no proof, no counter argument to support what you say, just that one single sentence. That is arrogant in the extreme. I produce a comment from a US military study and you provide.... well you don't even provide one of your game maps - because if you recall correctly, there was no road or rail link from Athens to the Albanian front. You just effectively simply state that what Curtis Lemay says is fact - no evidence, proof or justification required.

No roads or rail from Athens?? How did the Germans get there?

Of course Athens would have served as a supply port.

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Of course Athens would have served as a supply port.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact.

Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact.

Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy.

I also question the impact the barges would have had on German war production. The Germans didn't go to a Total War economy till much later (I think after Stalingrad). So there was a lot of slack in armaments production that could be taken up if this sort of hit took place. In other words, this would impact piano production, etc., not armaments production. That's one of the reasons why the Strategic bombing campaign was so slow to register results.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just think for a nano-second about what you are saying.

- According to you the attack on Spain is happening in July, with barely a pause after Case Red.
- You've now suddenly decided a large part of the Luftwaffe will be needed for Spain...... interesting development wonder why that is?.....

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- But to facilitate the Spanish operation it's vital to make the British think there is going to be an invasion.

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Why? You've said:

- The British can't respond with much as they are pretty much out of options.

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Quite, in the last month and a half they've been evacuated from France twice (although you seem to have no clue about one of these) and Norway.
- They've left their heavy weapons behind in France

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- The RAF has suffered big losses in France and over Dunkirk

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- The Spanish operation will be a 'blitz' and over in a few weeks

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And, if we are suspending disbelief and going with your ridiculous July date, why are the barges even necessary? How quickly can they possibly get to Northern France to be part of a deception operation for a Spanish operation that you think will be a blitz lasting a few weeks????

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact.

Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy.

I replied to this already: The deception facilitates the Spanish operation.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Ah, the penny drops... so that is why a significant part of the Luftwaffe is suddenly needed in Spain and that is why you've now decided to end the deception operation after Spain.

If an argument isn't going well, well just change what you are saying until it does (obviously within the framework of never being wrong)....

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I don't see anything ridiculous about a July start date.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I haven't changed anything. The premise has always been that the Germans decide on a Med strategy from the start of the war.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore).

So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map....

Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point?

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can you confirm in which post you've said "from the start of the war?". Perhaps I missed it. If I have, my apologies as I would never even have entered a debate with you if I'd known you'd said that.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore).

So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map....

Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point?

Are you seriously saying that supply lines are blocked by HILLS?!!

If you can move normal military units (not Mountain units) over terrain, the supply columns can follow.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can you confirm in which post you've said "from the start of the war?". Perhaps I missed it. If I have, my apologies as I would never even have entered a debate with you if I'd known you'd said that.

From post #81:

"Just assume this was the German plan all along."

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore).

So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map....

Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point?

Are you seriously saying that supply lines are blocked by HILLS?!!

If you can move normal military units (not Mountain units) over terrain, the supply columns can follow.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just think for a nano-second about what you are saying.

- According to you the attack on Spain is happening in July, with barely a pause after Case Red.
- You've now suddenly decided a large part of the Luftwaffe will be needed for Spain...... interesting development wonder why that is?.....

Significant part. Of course the Spanish operation needs air support! What military operation doesn't?

I don't think that George Washington, Napoleon Buonaparte, Genghis Khan, Julius, Caesar, Alexander the Great, among many others did not have air support.

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And, if we are suspending disbelief and going with your ridiculous July date, why are the barges even necessary? How quickly can they possibly get to Northern France to be part of a deception operation for a Spanish operation that you think will be a blitz lasting a few weeks????

I don't see anything ridiculous about a July start date. The operational details can be planned well in advance. Claims that the Germans have to rest after just six weeks of fighting don't jib with the combat from the rest of the war by both sides.